23
   

If you are a low/no meat eater, how do you feel about meat imitations?

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 11:31 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So what? I'm sure you can supplement your diet in order to make up for the nutrients you are missing out in meat. But that's an artificial replacement for a natural source of energy and vitamins. Never as effective as the real thing.

Care to substantiate that? Bodies are bodies, biochemistry is biochemistry, and our bodies live on biochemical substances. How would they know a supplement from what you label "the real thing"?

Failures Art is right: Our being omnivores means we can eat everything. It doesn't mean we need to, or even ought to.
failures art
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 11:35 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
I don't know if you read the earlier pages in this thread, but we kind of went here already.

Farmerman asserted that some B vitamins could only be found in meat. I searched, and this claim is only made of B-12. B-12 is found in lots of non animal products, and for that matter is not even a product of the animal but rather of bacteria.


So what? I'm sure you can supplement your diet in order to make up for the nutrients you are missing out in meat. But that's an artificial replacement for a natural source of energy and vitamins. Never as effective as the real thing.

I apologize. I should have made this more clear. FM's claim was demonstrably false. It is a dietary myth about B12.

You also misunderstood me. The B12 I get in my diet is coming from natural sources. I don't take any supplements. There's not a single nutrient I'm deficient in. I was initially concerned with this, and had blood work done. I'm not missing out on any nutrients in meat.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
As for protein, how much is left in a piece of meat after cooking it to the point where the germs are killed?


Tons of it is: just cook your meat to medium-rare. There is a reason that bodybuilders and others who want to build muscle eat tons of chicken: because it works.

Are we talking about normal diets and human activity levels or very specific types of training? How is a body builder a good example to describe diet norms? There is an entire community of vegan body builders too.

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

The ability to develop an abnormal about of body musculature is not necessarily a good metric for health. Would you like to examine these people's cardiovascular and circulatory health?

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Humans can digest meat, but there no reason to believe that we must or even that it is a component of an optimal human diet.


I don't think there is a shadow of a doubt that it is part of an optimal human diet. It is extremely dense with nutrients and fats, more so than practically any vegetable. We evolved to eat meat for a reason....

I'd say there is quite a shadow. Also, there is a reason we adapted to eat meat, and it was driven by paleolithic factors. See Deer. See Gorillas. We are adapted to be able to digest cardboard as well. Having the ability to digest meat doesn't mean it is in anyway superior.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I can't imagine for a second being athletic and not eating meat at all. Maybe it works if you don't want to push your body to do tough things. But it wouldn't for me.

It's interesting you bring this up. I am meeting more and more vegan athletes and they are excellent competitors. My girlfriend is vegan and at the National Tri she got third in her age group. I don't think being a vegan inhibits athletic capability.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 03:38 pm
@djjd62,
Can't think of anyone I'd rather be off topic on than you - should have known you'd ask - it's Lindsay McDougall from Frenzal Rhomb.

Can I just say what a pleasant thread this has been? Differing opinions but no nutjobs.

Not to start Set off again, but the terminology issue you have with 'Morals' vs 'Philosophy' is just that; terminology. *I* think both those words/concepts are defined by individuals but accept others may disagree, certainly I apologise if I gave the impression I was talking about anything other than my own feelings.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 05:26 pm
@hingehead,
cool, not familiar with him, but i remember seeing these tweets here and there on twitter

In May 2010 listeners were asked to use their twitter accounts to tweet food band puns, which could then be mentioned in the show. The topic trended globally at number 1 and number 2 on Twitter under the hashtags #bandfooodpuns and #foodbandpuns.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 05:34 pm
@hingehead,
No apology is necessary, i certainly took no offense. However, i believe that the majority of people take morality to refer to a universal, absolute standard, which means it applies to everyone, and not simply on an individual basis. I think that the term personal philosophy would be more readily acceded to. Even definitions of morality which do not refer to an absolute system of right and wrong refer tjo conformity to ideals of right conduct--which, of course, implies that those who don't behave that way are wrong.

For what it's worth, i assumed that you were referring to only what you believe yourself, for yourself. However, our conversation is not private, and others read here.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 07:59 pm
@Thomas,
Ive been away since last evening so I need to catch up with what Thomas had left off .

farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 04:26 am
@farmerman,
I believe that I stated that there were several B vitamins and that ALL are contained in meat.

the issue has morphed into a dietary "Which is denser" meat or soybean meal. Thomas seems to be someone who can live on soybean meal. I cannot. In fact, if youve ever tasted soybean meal its really vile ****. SOybeans, although an ancient crop, have not really been exploited for mass feeding until after WWII. The crop has turned into an interesting industry that relies on High uses of chemicals (that mot vegans seem to wish to avoid), Large scale ag practices (like huge pieces of ag equipment, and fertilizers (even though its a legume, we need fertilizer to get the seed started and growing).
Meat has been raised on a "boutique" basis for eons.
I dont like ANY industrial farming pravtice , so I grow grass fed animals and thats a low intensity activity.
We tried soybens and never EVER realized a profit over costs because we dont have enough land to spread out the unit costs (such as rental of custom sombining services).

Many ag activities require "one time" charges for equip or activity scheduling or special inoculants etc which have license fees.

To claim that you get everything you need from soy, may be ok if taste is unimportant and when eating is merely some clinical activity.

Meat is still my chosen form of dieatry fats, protein and vitamins. oybeans, in order to be processed into meal or extracting wheys, require steam processing in **** like HEXANE.

If I were to grow soybeans again, Id like to follow, ton for ton, what happens to my crop. Im sure most of it goes to make paints .
and plastics.

I got a package of processed soy bean patties. and the ingredients read like a FRANKENFOOD script.
SInce soybeans are perhaps the most processed and genetically modified food stuff, Im a little coinfused as to why some of the vegans here have chosen their particular lifestyle.

LESSEE

Are soybeans environmentally responsible? Hell no

Are soybeans free of Genetic modification-DOUBLE HELL NO because over 85% of soybeans in thne US and Argentian and Brazil are genetically modified (Roundup ready)

Are soybeans free of xchemical processing? NO NO, unless you consider Hexane, benzene, and chlorinated solvents as a foodstuff

Are soybeans able to be eaten in a manner thats unprocessed? HARDLY (Ive only seen soy sprouts once and, if ya want to eat the beans in a responsible fshion, you houl eat lupinis or lima beans, they are waay easier to grow and harvest.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 04:46 am
@farmerman,
Many years ago, after reading pros and cons concerning soybeans, plus the fact I don't really like them, I began to avoid the little beggars. Never felt any regrets.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 06:17 am
@edgarblythe,
I cant see how anyone would live on em unless they had to. Soybean growing is an environmental mess.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 08:54 am
@farmerman,
Some of your posts sure seem to have an awful lot of HEY LOOK , A SQUIRREL!! in them, Farmer.

Quote:
Are soybeans able to be eaten in a manner thats unprocessed? HARDLY


Not hardly at all. Soybeans are delicious, even most of the shell is edible and it's delicious too.

Quote:
Edible soybean, called Edamame in Japan and Mao Dou in China, is grown mainly to harvest the young green-shelled beans for vegetable uses, but not for the matured soybean crops. Plants grow best in warm climates but poorly in cold conditions. Soybean seed germination is relatively sensitive to water content in soil. Seeds can be easily rotted and fail to germinate if overwatered or soaked. Keep soil only moist but not soaked during the germinating period.

Edible soybean produces clusters of pods with green beans. Pick the pods when they are plump but still green. All pods on the plants are harvested at the same time. It is suggested to start seedings at several different times, so you can have continuous harvests of Edamame beans.

http://www.evergreenseeds.com/edsoyed.html




JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 09:24 am
Quote:

The Case Against Meat
Evidence Shows that Our Meat-Based Diet is Bad for the Environment, Aggravates Global Hunger, Brutalizes Animals and Compromises Our Health

by Jim Motavalli

There has never been a better time for environmentalists to become vegetarians. Evidence of the environmental impacts of a meat-based diet is piling up at the same time its health effects are becoming better known. Meanwhile, full-scale industrialized factory farming—which allows diseases to spread quickly as animals are raised in close confinement—has given rise to recent, highly publicized epidemics of meat-borne illnesses. At presstime, the first discovery of mad cow disease in a Tokyo suburb caused beef prices to plummet in Japan and many people to stop eating meat.

All this comes at a time when meat consumption is reaching an all-time high around the world, quadrupling in the last 50 years. There are 20 billion head of livestock taking up space on the Earth, more than triple the number of people. According to the Worldwatch Institute, global livestock population has increased 60 percent since 1961, and the number of fowl being raised for human dinner tables has nearly quadrupled in the same time period, from 4.2 billion to 15.7 billion. U.S. beef and pork consumption has tripled since 1970, during which time it has more than doubled in Asia.

One reason for the increase in meat consumption is the rise of fast-food restaurants as an American dietary staple. As Eric Schlosser noted in his best-selling book Fast Food Nation, “Americans now spend more money on fast food—$110 billion a year—than they do on higher education. They spend more on fast food than on movies, books, magazines, newspapers, videos and recorded music—combined.”

Strong growth in meat production and consumption continues despite mounting evidence that meat-based diets are unhealthy, and that just about every aspect of meat production—from grazing-related loss of cropland and open space, to the inefficiencies of feeding vast quantities of water and grain to cattle in a hungry world, to pollution from “factory farms”—is an environmental disaster with wide and sometimes catastrophic consequences. Oregon State University agriculture professor Peter Cheeke calls factory farming “a frontal assault on the environment, with massive groundwater and air pollution problems.”

World Hunger and Resources

The 4.8 pounds of grain fed to cattle to produce one pound of beef for human beings represents a colossal waste of resources in a world still teeming with people who suffer from profound hunger and malnutrition.

According to the British group Vegfam, a 10-acre farm can support 60 people growing soybeans, 24 people growing wheat, 10 people growing corn and only two producing cattle. Britain—with 56 million people—could support a population of 250 million on an all-vegetable diet. Because 90 percent of U.S. and European meat eaters’ grain consumption is indirect (first being fed to animals), westerners each consume 2,000 pounds of grain a year. Most grain in underdeveloped countries is consumed directly.

While it is true that many animals graze on land that would be unsuitable for cultivation, the demand for meat has taken millions of productive acres away from farm inventories. The cost of that is incalculable. As Diet For a Small Planet author Frances Moore Lappé writes, imagine sitting down to an eight-ounce steak. “Then imagine the room filled with 45 to 50 people with empty bowls in front of them. For the ‘feed cost’ of your steak, each of their bowls could be filled with a full cup of cooked cereal grains.”

Harvard nutritionist Jean Mayer estimates that reducing meat production by just 10 percent in the U.S. would free enough grain to feed 60 million people. Authors Paul and Anne Ehrlich note that a pound of wheat can be grown with 60 pounds of water, whereas a pound of meat requires 2,500 to 6,000 pounds.

Environmental Costs

Energy-intensive U.S. factory farms generated 1.4 billion tons of animal waste in 1996, which, the Environmental Protection Agency reports, pollutes American waterways more than all other industrial sources combined. Meat production has also been linked to severe erosion of billions of acres of once-productive farmland and to the destruction of rainforests.

McDonald’s took a group of British animal rights activists to court in the 1990s because they had linked the fast food giant to an unhealthy diet and rainforest destruction. The defendants, who fought the company to a standstill, made a convincing case. In court documents, the activists asserted, “From 1970 onwards, beef from cattle reared on ex-rainforest land was supplied to McDonald’s.” In a policy statement, McDonald’s claims that it “does not purchase beef which threatens tropical rainforests anywhere in the world,” but it does not deny past purchases.


http://www.emagazine.com/view/?142



Read on at the above website. There's much more.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 10:09 am
@JTT,
Quote:
Not hardly at all. Soybeans are delicious, even most of the shell is edible and it's delicious too
Obvious to me that youve never seena soybean WEVER. (they grow in large hairy PODS that, if you really want to eat, please lemme know so I can watch).

You will break your teeth on a mouthful of ripe soybeans.
failures art
 
  0  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 10:16 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

I believe that I stated that there were several B vitamins and that ALL are contained in meat.

You said...
farmerman wrote:

The panoptics of B vitamins can only be provided by some meat intake...

which I took to mean that some meat intake was necessary (since you assert "only") to get all of your B vitamins since this was a part of a post where you were talking about a "balanced diet" and the implication was that omnivores were capable of this in a way that vegans were not.

The truth is that a vegan has full access to all nutrients necessary for a balanced diet.

farmerman wrote:

the issue has morphed into a dietary "Which is denser" meat or soybean meal.

I don't agree that this is what it has morphed into. The larger topic of a vegan diet is in now way confined to soy.

farmerman wrote:

Thomas seems to be someone who can live on soybean meal. I cannot. In fact, if youve ever tasted soybean meal its really vile ****.

It's good enough for the cows, pigs, and chickens. I don't think Thomas is eating the meal by itself.

farmerman wrote:

SOybeans, although an ancient crop, have not really been exploited for mass feeding until after WWII. The crop has turned into an interesting industry that relies on High uses of chemicals (that mot vegans seem to wish to avoid), Large scale ag practices (like huge pieces of ag equipment, and fertilizers (even though its a legume, we need fertilizer to get the seed started and growing).


farmerman wrote:

Meat has been raised on a "boutique" basis for eons.

And has until recent human history been a very small portion of the human diet. It has long been a luxury item. I think the annual amount of meat consumed is something like 45lbs? Are you going to tell me that humans have been eating 45lbs of meat for "eons?" No. Meat is not a necessary part of a balanced diet.

farmerman wrote:

I dont like ANY industrial farming pravtice , so I grow grass fed animals and thats a low intensity activity.

Good on ya.

farmerman wrote:

We tried soybens and never EVER realized a profit over costs because we dont have enough land to spread out the unit costs (such as rental of custom sombining services).

Many ag activities require "one time" charges for equip or activity scheduling or special inoculants etc which have license fees.

Then don't grow soy beans.

farmerman wrote:

To claim that you get everything you need from soy, may be ok if taste is unimportant and when eating is merely some clinical activity.

One, who has claimed this? Two, why do you assume taste is unimportant to vegans and vegetarians? For that matter, why assume that given the option, people instantly gravitate towards meat? Shewolfnm, aidan, and a few others dropped in at the beginning of the thread and voiced that they prefer vegetables even though they still eat meat. I think you assume too much about what people value here. I am no less satisfied with my food, why should I?

farmerman wrote:

Meat is still my chosen form of dieatry fats, protein and vitamins. oybeans, in order to be processed into meal or extracting wheys, require steam processing in **** like HEXANE.

Have you ever ate edamame? JTT beat me to the punch on that one.

farmerman wrote:

If I were to grow soybeans again, Id like to follow, ton for ton, what happens to my crop. Im sure most of it goes to make paints .
and plastics.

So then, if you are comparing the impact of one diet vice another, it seems disingenuous to hold the portion of the crop that goes to a completely different part of society.

These things (paints, oils, etc) should be talked about, but they should be talked about in reference to their alternatives.

If the soy crops were reduced to the size such that it was only going towards foodstuffs, what kind of reduction would you see in pollution? What increase in sustainability? These are fair questions, but you seem to want to drive a knife in the heart of a crop for all its uses when I am simply discussing one use of it: Food for humans.

farmerman wrote:

I got a package of processed soy bean patties. and the ingredients read like a FRANKENFOOD script.

No more than any other food FM.

farmerman wrote:

SInce soybeans are perhaps the most processed and genetically modified food stuff, Im a little coinfused as to why some of the vegans here have chosen their particular lifestyle.

One, organic options exist and are very popular. Two, soy is not the flagship of a vegan lifestyle/diet. Since we started this thread talking about the products designed to mimic animal products, you should have noted that many people weren't a huge fan. I don't eat them that often. They don't replace meat, meat didn't need to be replaced. That's the point.

farmerman wrote:

Are soybeans environmentally responsible? Hell no

Is eating a cow that was already fed these beans?

You seem dead set on focusing on the worst possible example of soy farming and comparing it to the best possible means of animal farming. Do you think that's fair?

farmerman wrote:

Are soybeans free of Genetic modification-DOUBLE HELL NO because over 85% of soybeans in thne US and Argentian and Brazil are genetically modified (Roundup ready)

So I don't eat GE soybeans from Monsanto crops.

farmerman wrote:

Are soybeans free of xchemical processing? NO NO, unless you consider Hexane, benzene, and chlorinated solvents as a foodstuff

So I don't eat GE soybeans from Monsanto crops.

farmerman wrote:

Are soybeans able to be eaten in a manner thats unprocessed? HARDLY (Ive only seen soy sprouts once and, if ya want to eat the beans in a responsible fshion, you houl eat lupinis or lima beans, they are waay easier to grow and harvest.

Then I eat edamame, or for that matter, just eat a different plant. I'm not hard up for choices. Black beans, lentils, quinoa, etc. I'm not a soytarian. Soy is not the base of my diet. Chances are, if you eat animal products, you're eating a lot more soy than I am.

A
R
T
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 10:22 am
The farm i worked on in New Mexico more than 20 years ago, there was a jar of soy beans in the Kitchen. They were so hard, i decided they must have been there when they set off the atom bomb at Trinity. Soaking them didn't do a damn bit of good. I never did figure out a way to make them edible.

They had a tofu factory in Santa Fe. They'd get enthusiastic young hippies who'd line up for minimum wage to work at such a "cool" place. They'd last about a month or so, then they'd quit, and swear off tofu. It stank to high heaven when you drove by.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 10:34 am
@farmerman,
What's obvious, Farmer, is that you are awfully reluctant to read things that cause distress your own narrow self interests.

Read the link once again. You can buy edamame in the frozen food section of most large food markets.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 10:42 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
The farm i worked on in New Mexico more than 20 years ago, there was a jar of soy beans in the Kitchen. They were so hard, i decided they must have been there when they set off the atom bomb at Trinity. Soaking them didn't do a damn bit of good. I never did figure out a way to make them edible.


Okay, you're not a food scientist. What has this little ditty got to do with anything other than diversion?

Quote:
They had a tofu factory in Santa Fe. They'd get enthusiastic young hippies who'd line up for minimum wage to work at such a "cool" place. They'd last about a month or so, then they'd quit, and swear off tofu. It stank to high heaven when you drove by.


Again, what has this to do with anything? Have you ever driven by a slaughter house, a feedlot, a pig raising barn? They don't stink?

Quote:
They'd last about a month or so, then they'd quit, and swear off tofu.


You surveyed them, did you? I call normal Setanta bullshit.



0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 11:18 am
@failures art,
Quote:
So I don't eat GE soybeans from Monsanto crops.
Thats impossible. You arent given the choice. If you eat any kind of tofutti or such, the raw material is hardly grown by the makers of tofu.
ANYWAY, the soy v meat discussion was one between Thomas and I. Whether you dont eat GM soybeans is of no concern to me. Eat what makes you healthy. I think this discussion had earlier turned on to a demonization of meat.

1Grass fed beef , lamb, is easily procured.

2Tell me how you avoid GM soy products

3Feed lots and livestock diest are driven by choice and market. If the consumer would demand only grass fed beef and only corn fed pork, itd happen. I command a premium for grass fed beef and its a nutritious tasty product.

4Soy is an indutrial rop, to call it ag is almost a joke.It ranks up there with sugar and tobacco in my mind. Only a bit more than 25% of soy goes for animal and human food use, most is used for veggie oil and chemical /plastics.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 11:27 am
@Setanta,
Most nutrient value from soy into meal and carb meal, requires making an infusion with organic chemicals first.

We used to mix soy into our cattle and sheep feed but discovered that it , when ground, is very like the way you describe, it was more like sand. Now, for finishing sheep, weve quit using soy totally and instead we use a mix of corn grinds (with cob) for carbs and sugars, oats (stillone of the greatest and most digestible forms of protein) , orchard grass, for lysine and carbs, and dry molasses. We still have to lace the mix with vitamins, trace minerals and selenium (all of which are deficient in forage diets in eatsern soils)

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 11:32 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
I think this discussion had earlier turned on to a demonization of meat.


Funny, I never got that impression at all. Presenting the facts doesn't mean demonizing something, Farmer.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 11:38 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
So I don't eat GE soybeans from Monsanto crops.
Thats impossible. You arent given the choice.


not impossible, but it is a bit tricky

trying to find an up-to-date listing of sources of non-GMO soy and soy-based products is difficult

a couple of the producers I'd thought would be up on the desire for non-GMO soy products were nixed on the lists I could find (i.e. Gardenburger only had one non-GMO product)

http://www.soyinfo.com/haz/gehaz.shtml

http://www.soyinfo.com/

even these soy proponents recommend limited use

http://www.soyinfo.com/dangers.shtml

Quote:

There are three ways to get the benefits of soy products and avoid the possible dangers of soy products:


Avoid non-organic, genetically-manipulated soy ingredients. See the following web page for more information: http://www.soyinfo.com/haz/gehaz.shtml.


Avoid heavily-processed soy ingredients such as soy protein isolate, soy protein concentrate, hydrolyzed soy protein, texturized soy protein. These ingredients are will not provide any significant health benefits and may cause health problems as discussed above. Instead use traditionally-processed soy products such as miso, tempeh, tofu, natto, and soy milk.


Use soy products ocassionally. Eating miso soup several times per week and having tempeh or tofu in a dish a couple of time per week is fine. Use other legumes or lean meats to get the bulk of your protein.

 

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