40
   

On the wings of a snow-white dove

 
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 12:15 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote
Quote:
Jesus said a lot of things, many of them contradictory. Jesus said love thy enemies, God said smite my enemies. Which is the true Christian message?


Could you give me some other instances where you feel Jesus is being contradictory before I even attempt to respond to that?

I do have one question and maybe you can answer it for me. It's true in the OT God was pretty wrathful and it's just as true in the NT we see the covenant of grace and mercy (God's not smiting his enemies). When I tell someone that I would think they would be glad God doesn't still do the smiting, but instead, they want to know which is the way God is. It's the NEW testament, which is a NEW covenant. We find grace and mercy and forgiveness. I would think people would want to accept that.


Quote:
That just makes him a flawed human being. Remember, let him who is without sin...


Now that, gave me a giggle. I'm not used to someone being so forgiving when it comes to someone calling themselves a Pastor and embezzling money. Sure, he's human, but he is the Pastor of a Church; therefore, he has some mighty heavy responsibility. If he is stealing money from his church, is that going to instill in you that he really believes in God and his edicts?

Don't you consider everything about a person when assessing what type of person they are? If a person is a theif, he's a thief. If he's repented and doesn't do it anymore, wonderful!

I wasn't really going for the "look at what he's done" post yesterday. I was going to get a bit into do you think some of this stuff is just in retaliation of what he's planning to do? aspect but couldn't find the article. I'm going to check my history from yesterday and see if I can find it and I'll post it if I do.

It's ironic though. Many want forgiveness for human beings but yet want to hold God accountable forever for the things they don't like about him.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:34 pm
How many books do you think Pastor Jones has sold because of his Burn the Qu'ran Day?

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/8/5/5046/13673
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:40 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
It's the NEW testament, which is a NEW covenant. We find grace and mercy and forgiveness. I would think people would want to accept that.


The problem is, there is no real objective reason to believe that there is any more validity to the NT than there is the OT. Christians certainly seem to feel free to pull from whichever one they want, whenever they want.

And the two are contradictory in many ways, because it is impossible to have an Omnipotent god who, so to speak, changes his mind.

There is quite a bit of evidence that the NT was made up from whole cloth, by what essentially amount to religious politicians. I don't think it's a valid argument to point to the NT and pretend that it just wipes away everything in the NT, as if the old covenants are no longer valid.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:48 pm
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:
Could you give me some other instances where you feel Jesus is being contradictory before I even attempt to respond to that?

I am not going to get into a big debate with you about this. It's not the topic of the thread.

Arella Mae wrote:
I do have one question and maybe you can answer it for me. It's true in the OT God was pretty wrathful and it's just as true in the NT we see the covenant of grace and mercy (God's not smiting his enemies). When I tell someone that I would think they would be glad God doesn't still do the smiting, but instead, they want to know which is the way God is. It's the NEW testament, which is a NEW covenant. We find grace and mercy and forgiveness. I would think people would want to accept that.

That's not a question.

Arella Mae wrote:
Now that, gave me a giggle. I'm not used to someone being so forgiving when it comes to someone calling themselves a Pastor and embezzling money. Sure, he's human, but he is the Pastor of a Church; therefore, he has some mighty heavy responsibility. If he is stealing money from his church, is that going to instill in you that he really believes in God and his edicts?

I don't see how the two are connected. Surely someone can be a sinful man and still interpret the bible accurately.

Arella Mae wrote:
Don't you consider everything about a person when assessing what type of person they are? If a person is a theif, he's a thief. If he's repented and doesn't do it anymore, wonderful!

In this instance, I'll just follow Jesus's injunction not to judge others lest I be judged. I'll admit I'm somewhat surprised that you're not following it also.

Arella Mae wrote:
It's ironic though. Many want forgiveness for human beings but yet want to hold God accountable forever for the things they don't like about him.

You would hold God to the same standards as humans?
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:57 pm
@joefromchicago,
That scripture you are referring to is talking about not hypocritically judging. We make judgments every single day. We are called to make a righteous judgment. Unfortunately, the word judgment implies (at least to many) also a sentence of punishment. If I make the judgment that something you say is contrary to scripture I am not judging your soul, am I? No, I would only be saying what you are saying is contrary to scripture.

We are supposed to be able to judge between right and wrong. A better word would be discernment. No one can judge a person's salvation. That is strictly up to God.

We are told to beware of false prophets. How can we beware if we do not judge (make discernments about what they are saying)?

Do you think we are told to be as the Bereans and test everything with scripture if we aren't to make judgments?

I don't hold God to the standards of humans. What I was saying is there are those that do.
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:57 pm
Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

The New Testament could not exist without the Old Testament. Nothing in the New Testament would make sense if there was no Old Testament.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:20 pm
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

That scripture you are referring to is talking about not hypocritically judging.

That's one interpretation.

Arella Mae wrote:
We are told to beware of false prophets. How can we beware if we do not judge (make discernments about what they are saying)?

Don't be so modest. You're supposed to kill false prophets.

God, in Deuteronomy 13: 1-5, wrote:
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.


Arella Mae wrote:
Do you think we are told to be as the Bereans and test everything with scripture if we aren't to make judgments?

Beats me.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:26 pm
@joefromchicago,
Fine. Nice talking to you.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:54 pm
I just lifted this from the 'How Dare They Build A Mosque in NYC' thread. It's posted on an atheist site as an unedited interview. dunno, but it makes me shake my head...

Quote:
Who is the audience for your event?

We hope to reach Moslems and Non-Moslems to awake and awareness that the Koran is a book of lies and that the only true salvation is in Jesus Christ.

Do you think Muslims will turn to Christ as a result of this?

This is our prayer and desire that they would seriously reexamine their religion. They will then come to the conclusion that Islam is of the devil and Christianity is the only true religion.

While you may feel “Islam is a lie” (as it says on your website), do you think this is a smart thing to do strategically?

Yes, we believe it is a smart thing because it will get the attention of thousands of people hopefully causing them to reexamine their relationship with God.

Do you worry about being accused of spreading hate? Is any publicity good publicity?

No, we are not worried about spreading hate because we are spreading the truth. Truth is love and the hope of salvation.

Do you fear any backlash from the Muslim community?

Of course we do becaue Islam has proven itself to be a violent religion and Muhammed promoted violence in the Koran.

Have any of the media reports of this event portrayed you unfairly or inaccurately? Would you like to set the record straight on any particular issue?

We have been accused of being racist. We are not attacking a race. In other words, we are not attacking the Moslem. We love the Moslems and hope that they would come to true salvation. What we are attacking is Islam, the religion, and Sharia law, the political system.

It’s called an “International” event, but is any group/church outside of yours planning on joining you?

We have gotten responses from all around the world. Yes, we are expecting hundreds to attend.

Would you support a Muslim (or atheist) group that felt Christianity was a problem and made plans to burn copies of the Bible?

We, of course, would not support them, but we would support their first amendment rights of freedom of expression

How do you respond to Christians who feel this does more harm than good for spreading the faith?

This is the way that we have chosen to do it. To those Christians who disagree, we would encourage them to choose their own method of spreading the gospel and do so.

Source


amazing
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 03:25 pm
Well, good!
A victory for common sense.

... but the site of the Islamic cultural centre is NYC is to be shifted?
I didn't know that.

Quote:
Pastor scraps plan to burn Korans
Posted 8 minutes ago

The Florida-based church pastor who planned a mass-burning of Korans on September 11 has called off the event.

Pastor Terry Jones says the decision followed an agreement to move the site of a planned New York Islamic cultural centre and mosque further away from the site of the September 11 World Trade Centre attacks.

The withdrawal follows global condemnation and concern about the planned Koran burning.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/09/10/3007790.htm
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 03:31 pm
@msolga,
keep reading mso. There was no deal to move the site. Folks can say anything...
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 03:33 pm
Quote:
sources close to the imam behind the New York mosque denied any deal had been struck.

And Sharif Al-Gamal, owner of the building where the mosque and cultural center would be housed, told NBC News that there had had no discussions with Jones.

Jones insisted, however, that he had spoken to the imam, and "I have his word that he will move the mosque to a different location."


Jones also said he would travel to New York on Saturday to meet with officials of the mosque project. More


methinks the man is a loon.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 03:35 pm
@JPB,
That's what I figured, JPB.
He's talking through his hat ...
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 04:07 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
Jones insisted, however, that he had spoken to the imam, and "I have his word that he will move the mosque to a different location."
I watched/listened to him and he never said "he" talked with anyone, he pointed to someone off-camera and said "he" talked to a imam"
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 04:40 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Quote:
Jones insisted, however, that he had spoken to the imam, and "I have his word that he will move the mosque to a different location."


Just heard a radio clip of him saying this. Quite odd in so many ways.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 04:43 pm
@ehBeth,
Stranger and stranger all the time.

Quote:
"I am glad that Pastor Jones has decided not to burn any Qurans," Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf issued a statement. "However, I have not spoken to Pastor Jones or Imam Musri (of Florida). I am surprised by their announcement. We are not going to toy with our religion or any other. Nor are we going to barter. We are here to extend our hands to build peace and harmony."

snip

At a press conference, Jones said he had met with Imam Muhammad Musri of the Islamic Society of Central Florida and that Musri had told him that officials would guarantee that the mosque would be moved.

"I asked him three times, and I have witnesses," Jones said. "If it's not moved, then I think Islam is a very poor example of religion. I think that would be very pitiful. I do not expect that."

But after the press conference Musri said what he offered was a meeting among Jones, the New York imam and himself to talk about moving the mosque.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39074573/ns/politics-white_house/
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 04:45 pm
@msolga,
Cripes! This, if true, will only give the crazies bravado for more assininity.


Just read further - good. It didn't seem possible.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 04:46 pm
wait, so they're bringing the mountain (man) to Mohammed?
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 04:48 pm
@ossobuco,
The voices in Jones' head are not gods.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 04:57 pm
@roger,
Perhaps electrons.
0 Replies
 
 

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