@parados,
parados wrote:
Quote:Social forms are made out of moral forms... An example of this is law as a social form made to achieve justice, as a moral form... Sorry you can't get the difference, but when law does not reach that moral form, so that people feel the law is unjust, then they must change their form, which is exactly the sense in which T Jefferson uses the word: Form, in the Declaration of Independence.
No, Jefferson's use of the word "form" has nothing to do with moral forms or the other way you are using the word.
Quote:That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed
Jefferson is talking about a form of government. Every time he uses the word it refers to government. It has nothing to do with "moral forms".
Okay, Jefferson said form, which is a social form, Government; and if you read Aristotle, then his conclusion was that governments are formed for good, since that is the object of all human activity... Now, Good has never been defined though it has often been danced around, and the goods for which our government was formed are clearly stated and they are not defined either, and it is because, as infinites they cannot be defined, and so exist as moral, which is to say spiritual, forms... And this is a common division of reality, the moral and the physical, thought it is called emphatic in some instances... For example, to talk about the condition of the military one must talk of the physic, the physical condition, or morale, which is the spiritual condition, esprit de corp...It is obvious that we build social forms like government to achieve spiritual goods... It was clearly obvious to Ho Chi Minh, that we were fighting for spiritual values like freedom, while he was fighting for a traditional western value of materialism...Like the Americans in his day you may be blind the the moral values that motivate you, and because you have a sufficient definition of your moral forms, you may think they agree in every essential detail with others, and I will guarantee you that they do not... Moral forms cannot be defined except subjectively, which is to say: NOT at all... Yet moral forms stand behind all our activity just as Aristotle said of Good, another moral form... The fact that we cannot define such forms does not stop us from building social forms to achieve them, and make them real in our lives, and to a degree, our governement has made freedom a reality, and peace and unity, and nation, and welfare... Since it is also falling short, in needs to be reformed, or replaced as jefferson said...But when it is reformed it will be to achieve the same moral forms this government has failed to reach...It has not failed because the goals were bad... In part, it should have done more to define the moral forms, even though that is really impossible...And then they should have spelled it out, that the government should be judged on the basis of how well it realize the moral form with the social form...
And let me explain something to you, the knowing of which separate pedestrians from philosophers... Everything is a form/idea/concept/notion...When we see the appearance of a thing, and recognize it we are recognizing its form, and all forms, social and moral and physical form are forms of relationship... Like government, for an example, or employment, or school, or marriage are not simply forms, but also forms people relate through for a specific reason...Forms are not essential to all of reality, but are an essential part of our consciousness of reality... Now you say that is not how Jefferson used the term...There is one use of the term, which is quite common... We say formula, uniform, reform, inform, deform, or plain old form, and the meaning is the same... NO one should need a dictionary to understand the word, as it is so often, and accurately used... Jefferson used it correctly, and his conclusion were correct in regard to forms, that they should not be change for light and transient causes... But; once more, the whole of human progress has involved a change of forms... A change from a tent to a dungeon is a changed of forms, and yet the form is still a dwelling... It is too bad jefferson did not distinguish between moral and physical formss, and make life easy for you... Heidegger in his way did just that...Jefferson made a point of casting the need for revolution in metaphysical term, to achieve those moral values of life, liberty, and happiness...It is a big mistake to presume as Jefferson did that we all know what these words mean...The meaning is unique to each of us...
