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Can you ever really know another person?

 
 
Dosed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 10:19 am
@kennethamy,
I don't know why you found it necessary to quote my post in order to repeat what you've been saying.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 10:26 am
@Dosed,
Dosed wrote:

I don't know why you found it necessary to quote my post in order to repeat what you've been saying.


But I don't know why you keep repeating your question when you know the answer. (Although I am not so sure it is really a question so much it is a cry of complaint). You simply are unhappy about disappointment, when you expected better. It is a common enough complaint. But you already know the answer to the question, what your friend meant. He meant that you should not expect so much as you do, and that people are apt to be disappointed when they do expect so much of other people.
Dosed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 10:47 am
@kennethamy,
All I did was propose a discussion on a realization that I found. It led to an interesting discussion. That's really all.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 03:29 pm
What is known already, it is not asked in the first place...
So, the presence of doubt immediately implies that nothing nor no one can truly be known.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 03:42 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

What is known already, it is not asked in the first place...
So, the presence of doubt immediately implies that nothing nor no one can truly be known.


Now that is something I really doubt!
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 10:03 pm
@kennethamy,
Let me be more clear:

If it is known a priori, if it is part of you, it is so well integrated that there is no reason to even ask.
But in the case, if you ask then you doubt...therefore it can only be partially known a posteriori.

...Of course you could have deduce this principle from the notion of rest in Physics...

PERFECTION IMPLIES STATIC ! (Why Knowledge should be different ?)

...Again I can only conclude that your capacity of foreseeing a valid non linear algorithm in a sentence is not surprisingly, very limited...
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 05:10 am
You want to know why I hate you?
Well I'll try and explain...
You remember that day in Paris
When we wandered through the rain
And promised to each other
That we'd always think the same
And dreamed that dream
To be two souls as one
And stopped just as the sun set
And waited for the night
Outside a glittering building
Of glittering glass and burning light...

And in the road before us
Stood a weary greyish man
Who held a child upon his back
A small boy by the hand
The three of them were dressed in rags
And thinner than the air
And all six eyes stared fixedly on you

The father's eyes said "Beautiful!
How beautiful you are!"
The boy's eyes said
"How beautiful!
She shimmers like a star!"
The childs eyes uttered nothing
But a mute and utter joy
And filled my heart with shame for us
At the way we are

I turned to look at you
To read my thoughts upon your face
And gazed so deep into your eyes
So beautiful and strange
Until you spoke
And showed me understanding is a dream
"I hate these people staring
Make them go away from me!"

The fathers eyes said "Beautiful!
How beautiful you are!"
The boys eyes said
"How beautiful! She glitters like a star!"
The child's eyes uttered joy
And stilled my heart with sadness
For the way we are

And this is why I hate you
And how I understand
That no-one ever knows or loves another.

Robert Smith.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 07:25 am
@Eorl,
Or:

I do not love thee, Dr. Fell.
The reason why I cannot tell.
But this I know, and know full well,
I do not love thee, Dr. Fell

(Anon)
0 Replies
 
fast
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 02:02 pm
@Dosed,
I've never been in a close relationship with anyone that I didn't know. I may have been in a short-term relationship with someone that I didn't know well, but knowing someone and knowing someone well is not the same thing.

We do know the people that we are close to. And if we are very close to the people we know, then we know them well. What we don't know about the people we know well is absolutely everything there is to know about them; They may (for example) have hidden desires or secrets.
0 Replies
 
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 02:45 pm
It should befairly obvious that we can never really know people to the extent that the OP would imply that we can't. I think the real question should be, can we ever really know ourselves? There is a big difference between our ideological selves and our behavioral selves. If we really studied our behavioral selves would we find a stranger?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 02:58 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead wrote:

It should befairly obvious that we can never really know people to the extent that the OP would imply that we can't. I think the real question should be, can we ever really know ourselves? There is a big difference between our ideological selves and our behavioral selves. If we really studied our behavioral selves would we find a stranger?


Can we know other people even if we cannot really know other people? I suppose that to really know other people we would have perfectly to predict what they think, say, or will do. But could it possibly be that even if we don't have perfect knowledge of other people, so that we don't really know them, that we know them to the extent that human beings can predict what other people will do depending on how intimately they know them. Unless you think that either you have perfect knowledge (so that you can really know other people) or you don't know them at all. (And it is said that philosophers are detached from the "real world"!) I suppose we cannot really know anything if really knowing takes perfect knowledge, since no one has perfect knowledge. Skepticism still lives! As it has been well said, the perfect is the enemy of the good. It impossible standards are erected, it should not be much of a surprise when those standards cannot be achieved.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 03:05 pm
@kennethamy,
Is that what they mean by "we can't really know other people"? That we aren't omniscient and don't know everything other people will say, think, or do?

If that's the case, I don't know why a whole thread was created on the subject.
kennethamy
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 03:08 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:

Is that what they mean by "we can't really know other people"? That we aren't omniscient and don't know everything other people will say, think, or do?

If that's the case, I don't know why a whole thread was created on the subject.


That is not hard to answer. People tend to be confused, and need to learn clarity, part of which is being able to think through the consequences of their own assumptions. That is what philosophers are supposed to do.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  0  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 03:14 pm
Dosed wrote:
So, what do you think? Can you truly "know" another person?

Why do you keep putting quotation marks on the word "know"?

Dosed wrote:
Does it bother you to know that no one can ever know you?

It doesn't bother me, since other people can know me. And other people can know you too.

Dosed wrote:
Or understand you?

People can certainly understand me. But, yes, I can see you being understood may be a problem if you keep up this ambiguity.

Dosed wrote:
To know that you can never know another human being?

Why would you think that? Are you some sort of depressive nihilist? Or could it be that you're misusing the word "know?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 03:45 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:

Dosed wrote:
So, what do you think? Can you truly "know" another person?

Why do you keep putting quotation marks on the word "know"?

Dosed wrote:
Does it bother you to know that no one can ever know you?

It doesn't bother me, since other people can know me. And other people can know you too.

Dosed wrote:
Or understand you?

People can certainly understand me. But, yes, I can see you being understood may be a problem if you keep up this ambiguity.

Dosed wrote:
To know that you can never know another human being?

Why would you think that? Are you some sort of depressive nihilist? Or could it be that you're misusing the word "know?


I don't think Dosed's post was so much a reply to the OP as it was a complaint about some recent unfortunate happening. Just as the plaint, "Oh, why was I born?" should not be taken as a genuine question, but as a cry of woe.

But of course, that does not excuse those others who believed they were answering a genuine question, and gave what is sometimes thought to be the philosophical answer. And that, they think, means that they should forget everything they believe, and deny common sense and logic. Wittgenstein used to say to his students that before they entered to hear his lectures, "Please, do not leave your brains on the hat-rack with your hats".
Dosed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 06:22 pm
@Zetherin,
I'm actually an existentialist with strange curiosities in absurdism.

And I don't think I'm misusing the word "know."

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/nagel_nice.html

Give that article a read. While it's not necessarily dealing with the same concept, I think you'll have a better understanding of what I mean by my usage of the word and why I'm putting it in quotations.
Dosed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 06:23 pm
@kennethamy,
I'm not complaining about anything. I'm observing events in my life that are likely random and trying to make sense of them, as humans do.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 07:47 pm
@Dosed,
Dosed wrote:

I'm actually an existentialist with strange curiosities in absurdism.

And I don't think I'm misusing the word "know."

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/nagel_nice.html

Give that article a read. While it's not necessarily dealing with the same concept, I think you'll have a better understanding of what I mean by my usage of the word and why I'm putting it in quotations.

No offense, but I shouldn't have to read a lengthy article to understand you. Can you explain, in your own words, what you mean by the word "know", if you're not using the most common sense of the word?
eoe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 10:38 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:

No offense, but I shouldn't have to read a lengthy article to understand you.


I know that's right. Laughing
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 07:25 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:

Dosed wrote:

I'm actually an existentialist with strange curiosities in absurdism.

And I don't think I'm misusing the word "know."

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/nagel_nice.html

Give that article a read. While it's not necessarily dealing with the same concept, I think you'll have a better understanding of what I mean by my usage of the word and why I'm putting it in quotations.

No offense, but I shouldn't have to read a lengthy article to understand you. Can you explain, in your own words, what you mean by the word "know", if you're not using the most common sense of the word?


Especially since it is in that commonsense sense that the original question was asked? So, even if there is some esoteric meaning of "know", since it was not in that meaning the question was asked, how could it have anything to do with answering the question?
0 Replies
 
 

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