Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

You guys have ignored the good points that firefly has made,

To be honest, it is hard to agree with your good points when you immediately turn around and say some of the most vile, off the wall comments possible

you would find that you really arent that far apart

You seem to be saying, and have posted some links that seem to agree, that any and all sex between two people can be considered rape, and we all know that isnt true.

You believe that any time someone is raped, it is never their fault, and that even someone that instigates the sex can later cry rape.
You have defended as a "victim", a woman that climbed into a guys bed while he was asleep, and she started the sex. You have said she was raped, when it was plainly obvious that she wasnt.

You seem to want to deny the FACT that men have been falsely accused, having their reputations destroyed. You seem to look at that as acceptable.

Firefly,
I have not seen anyone on this thread ever say anything about rape not being evil, nobody disputes that.

You seem to want to deny the FACT that men have been falsely accused, having their reputations destroyed. You seem to look at that as acceptable.

Rape trauma: Why cops may think victims are lying
Research » Reaction to trauma can account for fragmented, sketchy stories.
By Christopher Smart
The Salt Lake Tribune
Jul 06 2014

Frustrated by a lack of rape prosecutions, West Valley police Detective Justin Boardman is developing a new way to investigate sexual assaults based on recent research surrounding the neurobiology of trauma.

Important to a successful investigation is understanding the impact of trauma on a rape victim, Boardman says, pointing to studies by a Michigan State University researcher. They explain why a victim’s story could be inconsistent and even incoherent — and why, after undergoing an invasive exam seeking forensic evidence, a victim would drop the case.

"A soup of hormones," including opiates, cortisol and oxytocin, released at the time of an attack can disrupt the victim’s consolidation of memory temporarily, according to psychology professor Rebecca Campbell’s examination of the neurobiology of rape trauma. Victims can provide "fragmented and sketchy" statements that investigators often discard as not credible.

Pressed for more details, the victim can experience a "secondary victimization," Campbell says in an interview. They feel "blamed, depressed and anxious." When the victim realizes police don’t believe her, she disengages from the investigation — case closed.

A victim should be afforded time — about two sleep cycles — before any in-depth questioning by detectives, according to Campbell. And investigators should show empathy and not question the victim as they would a criminal suspect with challenges, such as, "You are making this up."

Campbell’s research is "life changing," Boardman says.

"I was going, ‘Oh, my God, I’ve been doing this wrong all this time,’ " he says of the traditional approach to questioning a rape victim. "That was frustrating because we don’t go to work every day to do a bad job."

The West Valley City Police Department is in the initial phases of adopting a process similar to that suggested by Campbell, Boardman says. It has led the department to develop a new protocol for questioning rape victims that already is increasing the number of cases being filed for prosecution.

Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill says Campbell’s work in rape trauma is groundbreaking. It outlines an approach similar to that taken with victims of child sex abuse, he says.

"This emphatically addresses what the victim’s needs are before we press for arrest or prosecution," he says. "Why we haven’t applied it to adult victims boggles the mind."

Gill proposes a "multidisciplinary team" approach in which police, prosecutors and health-care professionals work together to seek better outcomes.

Key to that, he says, is uniformity in training that is based in science and focused on the victim.

Such changes, however, are not easy, the D.A. concedes. "The biggest challenge we have is the complacency of our institutional biases. We get comfortable with our practices and that becomes our reality."

"We have to move away from the old model," he says. "This will require buy-in at all levels."
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/58142434-90/campbell-cases-lake-police.html.csp

firefly, if this thread is truly about a specific TV ad, and not about a personal vendetta against men, then why do you keep it going 4 years after it started with non-related articles.

firefly, if this thread is truly about a specific TV ad, and not about a personal vendetta against men, then why do you keep it going 4 years after it started with non-related articles. And why is it that you ALWAYS have to get the last word in....?

you have not been around long so let me be the one to give you the 911: at A2K threads tend to run far and wide from the opening subjects. We dont have moderators here, so we tend to do what we want. I love that this happens, it is pretty much the last place where wide ranging conversation is possible.

And yet I've been attacked for going "off subject"? Smells like horseshit to me.

The owner of this site had once intended to let thread starter's be the police, where they could delete any post they wanted to. Thankfully this has not happened. Can you imagine how useless this thread would have been if Firefly had the power to delete any post should could not refute!

But just look at how yours and my posts are downvoted

Whereas, ANYONE who DARES speak up for men will be openly attacked without just reason!

Quote:
Whereas, ANYONE who DARES speak up for men will be openly attacked without just reason!
Ya sure, but they cant put us in chains...yet, so speak truth! At least then you can look at yourself in the mirror in the morning.

That's downright untrue, mysteryman. You've made this unjustified accusation before, and I've corrected you before, but I don't seem to be getting through to you.

I most definitely do not deny the fact that some men have had intentionally false allegations lodged against them. Nor do I deny that such deliberately malicious behavior, on the part of an accuser, can be extremely injurious to the reputation of anyone so accused. It is also damaging to the credibility of all the very real victims of rape who need to have their reports regarded seriously and investigated. And, in no way, do I feel that the lodging of deliberately false accusations is ever acceptable--not just in the case of sexual assaults, but in the case of any crimes.

Quote:
That's downright untrue, mysteryman... I most definitely do not deny the fact that some men have had intentionally false allegations lodged against them. Nor do I deny that such deliberately malicious behavior, on the part of an accuser, can be extremely injurious to the reputation of anyone so accused.

And you're a non-entity enlisted by hawk/william to bolster support for their ridiculous claims and misinformation?

And you're a non-entity enlisted by hawk/william to bolster support for their ridiculous claims and misinformation? You're about as credible as snow on a Summer's day. NEXT..

How. The ****. Is it "misinformation"

The Toxic Appeal of the Men’s Rights Movement
James S. Fell
May 29, 2014
A growing movement driven by misogyny and resentment is pulling in frustrated men struggling with changing definitions of masculinity. A men's fitness columnist on why they should walk away.

Imagine a kid who got a cone with three scoops of ice cream in it. Good flavors, too. Like peanut-butter chocolate, plus a scoop of cookie dough. In a waffle cone. And then this child whines about the lack of chocolate sprinkles on top.

Welcome to the men’s rights movement.

Wait, what? Men’s rights? That’s a thing? Yes, it’s a thing, and while there are certain legitimate aspects to men’s rights activism, or MRA, it’s overwhelmingly a toxic slew of misogyny. This world of resentment and hate speech has been brought to light in recent days as we learned about the vitriolic forum posts and videos left behind by Elliot Rodger, the 22 year-old accused of killing six people in Santa Barbara last week. But it’s hard to comprehend from Roger’s delusional rants how potent the movement’s message can be for ordinary men.

MRAs believe the traditionally oppressed groups have somehow seized control and taken away their white male privilege. They tap into fear and insecurity and turn it into blame and rage. Often the leaders of these groups are men who feel as though they got screwed in a divorce. They quote all sorts of statistics about child custody and unfair alimony payments, because in their minds, the single mother who has to choose between feeding the kids or paying the rent is a myth. They believe passionately in their own victimhood and their creed goes something like this: Women are trying to keep us down, usurp all our power, taking away what it means to be a man.

One popular MRA site is AVoiceForMen.com, with a mission to “expose misandry on all levels in our culture” and “denounce the institution of marriage as unsafe and unsuitable for modern men” as well as “promote an end to chivalry in any form or fashion” and “educate men and boys about the threats they face in feminist governance.” They also want an “end to rape hysteria” and promote “civil disobedience.” In their defense, AVFM does support nonviolence, but with all the inflammatory rhetoric, do readers always take heed?

There are Reddit threads and other Internet forums dedicated to men’s rights, and the language and vitriol towards women and especially towards feminism is appalling. Any messages of nonviolence seem lost in the hate mongering. These groups spew logically faulty statistics about the prevalence of male rape and spousal abuse, and how there really is no glass ceiling or pay inequality, and general complaints about how “that bitch got my promotion because she has a uterus.”

Men’s Rights Canada made headlines again recently with their classless response to an anti-sexual assault campaign called “Don’t be that guy.” Posters went up across the nation implying women aren’t punished enough for infanticide, stating, “Women can stop baby dumping. “Don’t be that girl.” This was a follow up of the same campaign from last year alleging many women made false rape accusations because they felt guilty over a one-night stand.

As a white man who writes about fitness, I’m very aware of the pressures on men and the many ways that these kinds of hateful messages reach my audience, both overt like the Canada ads and the less blatant claims of male victimhood in mainstream media. It’s clear that the definition of masculinity is in flux, and for some men that’s frustrating, especially with near-pornographic ad campaigns promoting women as objects of sexual conquest. And while there are aspects of MRA that are worth bringing to light, as a movement it can suck a good man down a rabbit hole of resentment. It is backward-looking and pining for good old days that never were.

Are there some problems with specific instances of unequal treatment? Yes. Is there some anti-male sentiment out there? Yeah, that happens too. But turning these issues into a movement is laughable. It is a like a multi-millionaire who whines that a tax loophole was closed and he’s losing 0.5% of his annual income.

Men, especially white men, aren’t marginalized, we aren’t under attack, and we not in danger of losing the overwhelming privileges society bestows upon us for having pale skin and a penis. However, MRAs have been described as whining children by the women they call “feminist bitches.”

So to any man who feels like he’s getting caught up in such a movement because they feel emasculated or are just having trouble relating to women and perhaps sympathizing with Elliot Rodger, I will tell you this: Life isn’t fair. Life is NOT fair.

Women will judge you. Some will judge you based on your appearance, your height, your width, you genitalia, your wealth, your car, your clothes, your acne. In other words, they will judge you the exact same way you judge them.
http://time.com/134152/the-toxic-appeal-of-the-mens-rights-movement/

Fox News’ “destructive” ignorance: Network gets schooled by male rape survivor
Fox News thinks the idea of men as rape victims is hilarious. A survivor has a message for Tucker Carlson and co.
by Katie McDonough
June 19, 2014

On Fox News last week, contributor Jesse Watters made some wildly ignorant and dismissive comments about men, boys and sexual assault. While discussing a statutory rape case involving a 46-year-old woman and a 16-year-old boy, Watters said, “It is a serious crime. But if you’re a 16-year-old kid and you have sex with your best friend’s mom, you usually get high fives.” It wasn’t the first time a pundit — on Fox or elsewhere — said something to make light of the experiences of male survivors. Two weeks earlier, Tucker Carlson argued that sexually assaulting a teenage boy is a victimless crime, since according to Carlson boys think any sexual contact is “the greatest thing that’s ever happened.” When his co-panelists limply pushed back on his comment, Carlson replied, “That’s just real. I don’t know what to say. I don’t want it to be true, it just is true.”

Despite Carlson’s assurances that he is speaking for all male survivors, he is not. Most people with even a modicum of compassion and common sense understand that sexual assault is a violent and deeply traumatizing thing for survivors of all genders, but hearing about the pain that sexual assault causes from the mouths of male survivors is something we could all stand to listen to more often. Michael Skinner — a musician, educator, advocate and survivor of sexual abuse — knows all too well the consequences of minimizing the sexual violence that happens to men and boys. We spoke a few weeks ago — after Carlson made his comments about boys and rape — but our conversation is just as relevant right now.

“It’s ignorance. It’s destructive. It’s hurting so many men,” Skinner said of our cultural attitudes about men and sexual violence. “We need to break the cycle. Society reinforces this whole myth, these stereotypes, this stigma that it’s not destructive for a man, for a teenage boy. That it’s not hurtful. When in fact it is. It hurts like hell.”

Skinner was sexually abused as a child by members of his family, but was also victimized by a trusted adult when he was a teenager. Shame about these things kept him silent about the abuse well into his adulthood. “For the longest time I kept it to myself because I just felt horrible inside about what happened,” he said. “I felt dirty and perverted because of what I experienced — what was done to me. I felt weak because of it, always odd or weird. I blamed myself.”

While Fox News pundits may have a fine time joking about teenage boys being harassed and abused by adult women, Skinner knows there’s nothing funny about it. He shared his experience of being assaulted as a teenager, and discussed the many dynamics — power, physical strength and size, gender — that he struggled to understand while it was happening and in the aftermath of the assault:

As a teen — maybe around 15 or so — I was babysitting for this couple with four young children. He was an engineer and she worked part time, and they were living the American dream, if you will. And then they separated. One night, the woman came home, and as she was about to pay me, she pinned me up against a wall. Now, keep in mind, I’m 6 foot 4 and I’m a big guy. Back then, too. I could take care of myself. I wasn’t afraid of anyone. And I’m not saying that to try to sound macho, I am saying this because when this woman pinned me up against the wall and put her hand down on my crotch and stuck her tongue in my mouth, I froze. I literally froze. I was scared. I was in deep fear.

It seemed like an eternity but I know it wasn’t, it was just that split second or so. It took me a while to compose myself and push her away. And I couldn’t run out of that house fast enough. And it left me in fear, it left me feeling like I wanted to throw up.

She was the perpetrator. This was an adult. This was a woman in her mid-thirties to early forties. There was a power dynamic. It was wrong. If a male did this to a female, it would be called rape or sexual assault. It was sexual assault. It was a violation, period. I understand people on these shock radio shows and talking heads on television — they’re saying stuff just to get ratings, but saying [teenage boys can't be sexually assaulted] is so wrong.
Watters and Carlson might want to listen to men like Skinner before making sweeping pronouncements about the things they “know” about men and sexual assault. Unfortunately, their attitudes are fairly common. We tend to diminish the trauma of sexual violence against men — it’s usually played for laughs in film and television when it’s addressed at all. And the parameters of heteronormative masculinity hardly leave room for expressions of emotion or pain from most men, particularly about a topic like sexual violence.

Skinner pointed to male survivor organizations like 1 in 6 and Male Survivor as a sign that there is more support than ever for male victims of sexual assault, but said there is still a long way to go to break the stigma and stereotypes around men coming out about their experiences of abuse. “I feel like there is a double whammy for male survivors,” he said of his own experience seeking help. “I was supposed to suck it up and just get over it.
And that was fed to me by a doctor. ‘This will help you pull your bootstraps up’ — a doctor telling me to pull up my bootstraps. There wasn’t the awareness and there still isn’t.”

I can’t imagine anything more direct than these Skinner’s honest insights into our destructive cultural norms and the harm they cause, and yet we’re generally very bad at listening to people like him. We ignore survivors of all genders. And when we do hear them, we’re even worse at taking them seriously.

The statistics on sexual violence should be impossible to ignore. The same goes for the voices of survivors like Skinner.

“As men, we’re not supposed to express these emotions. We’re supposed to be tough and all that garbage. It’s wrong. We should be able to express our emotions,” he said of the shifts that need to occur to create room for more survivors — particularly men, but really survivors of all genders — to come forward. Finding the courage to speak changed Skinner’s life, and he said he wants to see that happen for others:

I think for survivors, male and female, it really is worth it to come forward and share these things in order to break that silence. It’s hard. It is painful in the healing process, but I tell you the rewards are great because, I survived. I definitely survived some horrible things, but I truly feel I’m thriving in life today. Once I was able to break that silence and do this work, I’m in a better place.

I think sharing the secrets, getting rid of the stigma, because it’s not our shame to bear. I can’t go back, I can’t change what happened to me. But if I can share my experience and it can help one other person, that’s worth it to me. It really is.
http://www.salon.com/2014/06/19/fox_news_destructive_ignorance_network_gets_schooled_by_male_rape_survivor/