25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 12:36 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Sorry I can see the downside of destroying the ability to compare the tend in sexual crimes for a large fraction of a century and the only up side is for you graining a one time bump so you can falsely claim that rapes had taken a sharp upward jump.
The obvious solution is to keep the rape stat but also add a "illegal sex" number to cover all of the cases where consent does not meet the government demand, which is the majority of the cases that the feminists are trying to run their business arm on.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 12:43 pm
@hawkeye10,
Men can be the victims of "real rape".

However, if you and BillRM were to acknowledge that fact, and wanted the sexual assaults of men regarded on a par with those of women, you would be forced to admit that sexual assault is not a gender issue, but rather a gender neutral one. And that would blow your entire line of propaganda/paranoid delusional belief that sexual assault laws are part of some feminist plot to control and emasculate men and "a tool to beat men with". Your only interest in posting to this thread is to give yourself a platform to voice your paranoid delusional beliefs regarding "feminists" and current state sexual assault laws. You have no interest in seeing male victims of sexual assault receive fully equal recognition in the criminal justice system--you're not even interested in seeing that the "real rapes" of men count in the federal rape statistics.

Sexual assault laws help to protect both genders from unwanted, non-consenting sexual contacts. To act as though serious sexual assaults of men are not valid crimes, worthy of inclusion in federal rape crime statistics, is to do a terrible disservice to the victims of such crimes, and affects the allocation of funds to better assist these victims with needed interventions, supports, and treatment.

Your alleged concern about "men's rights" is as phony as everything else you post.

All you keep saying, or incessantly whining about, is that "women suck" because they can legally keep you from getting in their pants when such contact is unwanted by them. Awww...poor baby. Women have no right to be such "heartless bitches" and deprive you of what you want. Poor Hawkeye, wallowing in self pity, as usual. Let's pass the tissues. Laughing






hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 12:49 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Sexual assault laws help to protect both genders from unwanted, non-consenting sexual contacts. To act as though serious sexual assaults of men are not valid crimes, worthy of inclusion in federal rape crime statistics, is to do a terrible disservice to the victims of such crimes, and affects the allocation of funds to better assist these victims with needed interventions, supports, and treatment.
there are reporting data bases other than the FBI major crime register, and while I think reporting standards could be upgraded your assertion that if the FBI rape number is not redefined then all of these other sex crimes are ignored is a canard intended to further your agenda at the expense of the truth. The sexual assault of men is not ignored at the local level, nor in Washingtion
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 01:09 pm
@hawkeye10,
Of course sexual assaults on men are track however that damn damn FBI database is interfering with the Fireflies of the world ability to falsely claims that reported rapes of women had been doing anything but going down and down and down and down.

hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 01:18 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Of course sexual assaults on men are track however that damn damn FBI database is interfering with the Fireflies of the world ability to falsely claims that reported rapes of women had been doing anything but going down and down and down and down.


Tell a lie and attempt to manipulate men into doing what she wants with guilt.....I have a feeling that this is standard operating procedure for Firefly, and further that it has worked all to well too many times over the years. She needs to get with the program, we men have increasingly had enough of being pushed around and being painted as evil creatures who constantly abuse females....we have found our voice and are not silently tolerating the bullshit anymore.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 01:56 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
while I think reporting standards could be upgraded

It's not just a matter of "upgrading" it's also a matter of the federal statistics more accurately reflecting the crimes that occur on a local level--and that also affects the allocation of funds and resources on the local level.
Quote:
intended to further your agenda at the expense of the truth

I have no "agenda", nor do I have any personal interest in the issue, as you do.

The "truth" is, on a state level, there has been increased recognition of the fact that serious sexual assault/rape no longer involves only the situation of a man having "carnal knowledge" of a female without her consent. The states have moved toward gender neutrality in both the wording and the application of the sexual assault laws, and many no longer use the term "rape", instead substituting the gender neutral term "sexual assault", and the penalties for the sexual assaults of males are equal to the penalties for sexual assaults of females--the gender of either the victim or the perpetrator is no longer a relevant or salient factor in how these crimes are regarded.
That's a giant leap forward in attitude, and a definite victory for men's rights and gay rights in this area. It also tends to render rather obsolete your particular view that sexual assault law exclusively reflects gender power battles between "feminists" and men in general, and that "real rape" only occurs between males and females.

Personally, I expect that the move toward gender neutrality in the wording of sexual assault laws will continue in the future, with even more states abandoning the use of the term "rape" as defined only as non consenting sexual intercourse between a male and female. Redefining "rape" on the federal level, so it becomes more congruent with the gender neutral definitions already in use in many states, will not only make federal crime reporting statistics more accurate, it will help to advance, on a national level, the attitude that sexual assaults are gender neutral crimes, and that the sexual assaults of one gender are no more or less heinous or significant than the sexual assaults of the other gender.

I find your "battle of the sexes" view of sexual assault law, not only inaccurate and somewhat delusional, but also quite anachronistic. Thinking on these matters, as well as the actual wording and application of sexual assault laws, has become increasingly gender neutral, apparently without your notice, probably because your particular personal power issues with regard to women prevent you from seeing anything that's not in synch with your emotionally determined narrow and rigid views. While you've been busy spouting what you consider the "truth", which is nothing more than an airing of your personal grievances, the larger society has moved on in how it views sexual assaults and has arrived at a much more gender neutral stance in terms of actual sexual assault laws. You, and the "feminists", are really both relics of the past, and so is the federal government's current definition of "rape". It's time to recognize the reality of where we are now.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 02:14 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
It's not just a matter of "upgrading" it's also a matter of the federal statistics more accurately reflecting the crimes that occur on a local level--and that also affects the allocation of funds and resources on the local level
Local people know what the local problems are already, they dont need Washington to tell them, and I want to vastly depower Washington so I dont want Washington running/advising/funding local law enforcement efforts so Washington not having the best data is a minor problem so far as I am concerned. Still, the lack of standardized reporting is ridiculous, if the feminists want to do something useful they can push to get all law enforcement reporting to the same date bank using the same definitions with 100% compliance, not that they will of course...if proposed government action does not further their agenda they are not interested.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 02:49 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
You, and the "feminists", are really both relics of the past, and so is the federal government's current definition of "rape". It's time to recognize the reality of where we are now.
I did not just fall off of the turnip truck, I recognize the signature of the feminists when I see it, I dont need to watch them sign the arrest warrant to know that they are responsible.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 03:22 pm
Quote:
The domestic-violence incident involving former New York City deputy mayor Stephen Goldsmith illustrates what Harvard Law professor Jeannie Suk has written about. Domestic violence has become an area where the government takes control away from the individual woman.

After Mrs. Goldsmith said to her husband, “I should have put a bullet into you years ago,” Mr. Goldsmith shoved her into a counter, smashed a phone, and held her for some moments. She called the police. When they got there, she didn’t want her husband arrested, but it didn’t matter. Arrest is mandatory once the woman has made the call, and her husband spent two days in jail before the charges were dismissed when she declared her wish that he not be prosecuted. (And the Goldsmiths were fortunate there. According to Suk, many disputes result in mandatory prosecution and sentencing, over the objections of the woman.)

Now the Goldsmiths have begun a public-relations offensive, calling the domestic-violence incident a “mistake” and a “misunderstanding.” No, it was not a mistake or misunderstanding. It is the law. A woman who declares herself a victim of domestic abuse by calling the cops will for a time be seen as incapable of making her own decisions. Evidently Mrs. Goldsmith regrets her action, but now his career is in shambles, his children have suffered, and the marriage is marred. No evidence has been presented that Goldsmith was a serious abuser; it was all for nothing.

As I mentioned in a previous PBC entry, Suk argues that, thanks to feminism, the home has been defined for the purposes of the law as a ”place of male violence.” This is due to what Suk calls “governance feminism,” developed by Catharine MacKinnon, which “focuses on the subordination of women by men, particularly in intimate and sexual relationships.” According to Suk, MacKinnon’s “influence on our legal system’s understanding of men and women cannot be overstated. If you talk to police, prosecutors, lawmakers, and judges about domestic violence, perhaps they have not read MacKinnon, but they often subscribe to the premise that men subordinate women through sex and violence.” Suk’s book, At Home in the Law: How the Domestic Violence Revolution is Transforming Privacy, from Yale University Press, was published in 2009


http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-beta-cons/276256/government-feminism-carol-iannone

The take away is that if you are having a fight with your spouse DO NOT CALL THE COPS! and pray that no one snitches on you...the state will work hard to ruin your life if you make this mistake.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 05:29 pm
@hawkeye10,
The state had the charming habit of trying to enforce a de-facto divorce on a couple with no contact orders again the wishes of both parties.

If the man roll over however and pleas deal the state will often offer to drop the no contact order in many cases.

It just one more example of women being view as children.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 05:34 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
It just one more example of women being view as children.
When the state removes from women the right to self determination, demands that it is the decider, does that make women like children....or are they then chattel owned by the state?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 05:36 pm
@BillRM,
Footnote...... There are some questions of how constitution such force state interfere in marriages happen to be but the last time I check the subject had yet to be put before a higher court.

Sooner of later some "victim" with resources is going to sue the state for such interfered with the right to be married.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 05:55 pm
@hawkeye10,
In my first marriage my charming wife at the time hits me in front of witnesses yet she still feel free to go to the courts and get a no assault order not a no contact order by lying under oath against me.

As soon as I was served with the paperwork I order my lawyer to serve her at once with divorce papers.

I remember asking my lawyer if I should challenge that outrageous order but he told me not to bother and sadly I listen to him.

If it was not for a clerk error in typing my name in the court records anyone to this day who did a background check on me would see this order.

Footnote she was stupid as not only did her lying in such a manner got me off the fence of if I was going to divorce her or not but up to that point I had been paying all the household utilities bills even those I was not living there and I of course I stop doing that along with stopping paying the mortgage on the home.

I was piss big times..................
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2011 09:11 pm
@BillRM,
You will search far and wide for data on how restraining orders are used, for instance how many are issued and what percentage are based upon documented abuse and what percentage are based upon fear of abuse, and what damage protection orders do to men and their relationships with their kids, but you will not find any....in a system rife with injustice the retraining order process is the poster child for American judicial system injustice, and NOBODY in the system wants to talk about it. Normally such an important part of the legal system would be subject to some rigorous analysis, to see what it does and how it might be improved, but not here. The feminists have long shielded truth that they dont want examined from prying eyes through financial and moral coercion, and nothing is more protected from the light of day than are protection orders. The feminists ability to hide truth is breaking down, so someone will soon examine protection orders.....the results will not be pretty.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Oct, 2011 07:33 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

You will search far and wide for data on how restraining orders are used, for instance how many are issued and what percentage are based upon documented abuse and what percentage are based upon fear of abuse...but you will not find any....

You didn't search too far. Laughing
Quote:
Misuse of restraining orders is claimed to be widespread. Elaine Epstein, former president of the Massachusetts Bar Association, has remarked, “Everyone knows that restraining orders and orders to vacate are granted to virtually all who apply…In many cases, allegations of abuse are now used for tactical advantage.”

A 1995 study conducted by the Massachusetts Trial Court that reviewed domestic restraining orders issued in the state found that less than half of the orders involved even an allegation of violence. Similarly a West Virginia study found eight out of 10 orders were unnecessary or false.

The effectiveness of restraining orders to protect people from violence is questionable. Samuel Goldberg, a Boston attorney specializing in partner abuse cases, remarks that restraining orders are awarded so casually that “they are not taken as seriously as they should be.” The Independent Women’s Forum likewise decries these legal tropes as “lulling women into a false sense of security.”

Restraining orders can also escalate partner conflict. In its Family Legal Guide, the American Bar Association warns, “a court order might even add to the alleged offender’s rage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restraining_order
Quote:
Normally such an important part of the legal system would be subject to some rigorous analysis, to see what it does and how it might be improved, but not here

There is a great deal of research on the effectiveness, or lack of it, of restraining orders. There is a great deal of legal discussion on the matter. These things are quite easily found on the internet. These issues are most definitely out in the open and subjected to quite a bit of scutiny. Because you are uniformed, and mired in your paranoid conspiracy theories, doesn't mean that the information isn't available.

Which feminist organizations or feminist groups support restraining orders?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Oct, 2011 07:55 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Which feminist organizations or feminist groups support restraining orders?
The list is long, do your own homework, but here is a taste

Quote:
In a 7-2 decision, the Court ruled that Jessica Gonzales did not have a constitutional right to police enforcement of her mandatory court-ordered restraining order against her husband. Gonzales had filed a $30 million lawsuit against the Castle Rock, Colorado police department for
failing to respond to five phone calls she made reporting a violation of the restraining order. The town of Castle Rock, backed by the Bush administration and several police organizations, won their argument that it would be unrealistic to enforce every restraining order. With the vast
majority of restraining orders requested by women, according to the National Center for Violent Crime, the Castle Rock decision puts women’s lives in jeopardy and potentially lets police departments off the hook for failing to enforce mandatory orders.

FMF (Feminist Majority Foundation) President Eleanor Smeal said of the ruling, “It is upsetting that this decision, which affects so many women and children, has been virtually ignored by the press. Even when women manage to pass tougher legislation, we can’t get it enforced. Mandatory restraining orders aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on if police officers are not required to enforce them.”


The National Center for Women and Policing joined Women in Federal Law Enforcement, the National Black Police Association, the National Association of Black Law Enforcement Officers, the National Center for Women & Policing, and Americans for Effective Law Enforcement, Inc. in filing an amicus brief in support of Gonzales’ claim that her due process
rights were violated

http://www.ncdsv.org/images/SupremeCourtDecisionWeakeningRestrainingOrders.pdf
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Oct, 2011 08:07 pm
@hawkeye10,
A UN hack just recently called for making the US restraint of citizens process even more slanted towards women IE unjust towards men

Quote:
GENEVA (23 August 2011) – The UN Special Rapporteur on violence against women, its causes and consequences, Rashida Manjoo, urged the United States Government to reexamine its current policies on dealing with violence against women. Her call follows a landmark decision by the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights finding the US government responsible for human rights violations against Jessica Lenahan (Gonzales), a survivor of domestic violence, and her three deceased children.

“Violence against women is the most pervasive human rights violation which continues to challenge every country in the world, and the US is no exception,” Ms. Manjoo stressed. “The US Government should reassess existing mechanisms for protecting victims and punishing offenders, and establish meaningful standards for enforcement of protection orders and impose consequences for a failure to enforce them.”

“To achieve this,” the human rights expert said, “the State should initiate local and national dialogues with relevant stakeholders to consider the effectiveness, in theory and application, of expedited proceedings, mandatory arrest policies, mandatory prosecution policies, and batterer’s programs.”

“Earlier this year, I conducted a fact-finding mission* to the country,” Ms. Manjoo recalled. “In my discussions with government officials, victims, survivors, and advocates, including Jessica Lenahan, I found a lack of substantive protective legislation for domestic violence victims in the United States, as well as inadequate implementation of certain laws, policies and programs.”

While landmark US legislation such as the Violence Against Women Act exists to address the high incidence of violence against women, the Special Rapporteur noted “there is little in terms of legally binding federal provisions which provide substantive protection or prevention for acts of domestic violence against women.”

“As highlighted in my 2011 report to the Human Right Council, States’ should adopt a holistic approach to addressing discrimination and violence against women,” said the human rights expert recalling four key recommendations:

1. “At the outset, States’ responses to violence should be based on the premise that the human rights of women are universal, interdependent, and indivisible.”
2. “They should not treat all women homogenously, but bear in mind that discrimination affects women in different ways depending on how they are positioned within the social, economic and cultural hierarchies.”
3. “States’ should also recognize that the various forms and manifestations of violence against women are simultaneously causes and consequences of other instances of violence.”
4. “Efforts to end all forms of violence against women must consider how structural and institutional discrimination perpetuate and exacerbate women’s experiences of abuse.”

“As the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights found in the Jessica Lenahan case,” the UN Special Rapporteur said, “State inaction towards cases of violence against women, fosters an environment of impunity and promotes the repetition of violence.”

Ms. Rashida Manjoo (South Africa) was appointed Special Rapporteur on Violence against women, its causes and consequences in June 2009 by the UN Human Rights Council, for an initial period of three year. As Special Rapporteur, she is independent from any government or organization and serves in her individual capacity. Ms. Manjoo is also a Professor at the Department of Public Law at the University of Cape Town.


http://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=11325&LangID=E

This reports brings to mind the current feminist effort to both have puppet "men's" groups advocate for women as well as their insistence that they are now focused on all sexual abuse, and that the abuse of men sexually is just has bad as is the abuse of women....I will entertain that assertion if this years reauthorization of the Violence against Women's Act contains a name change. I shant be holding my breath waiting. A name change is not good enough though, we must see that men's rights groups get an equal footing with the feminists in deciding how the loot is spent.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Oct, 2011 08:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
The only feminist organization mentioned in that article is the Feminist Majority Foundation.

Is there anyone who would not agree with Eleanor Smeals statement that,
"Mandatory restraining orders aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on if police officers are not required to enforce them.”

Why bother issuing them if they aren't being enforced? That's a waste of time and money. That view is hardly a "feminist" position. Rolling Eyes

This is your idea of how feminists are trying to keep info on restraining orders hidden--a response to a very public Supreme Court decision? Laughing --by a very public, and outspoken, and well known feminist. Laughing Yup, those feminists are working in secret, and hiding things from the public. Laughing


hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Oct, 2011 08:24 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Yup, those feminists are working in secret, and hiding things from the public.
as evidenced by the lack of study. These things were pushed big time for decades by the feminists, the law was greatly expanded during the 1990's based upon lots of assertions from the feminists who run sex law but scant evidence of being productive or just, and it only in the last few years as men's rights groups come to power that we have begun to get some debate going about where we are and how we got here. We still dont have the scientific study that we need though, hopefully we will have some results soon.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Oct, 2011 08:30 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Published June 2009
Chapter 7. Judicial Responses
Section 11 — Do protective orders work?
The research has not been able to answer this question definitively, mainly because it is not ethically permissible to randomly grant or deny protective orders to compare results.BULLSHIT, it is because the feminists have not wanted it studied, this here is excuse making Furthermore, these orders may "work" at different levels.
First, in terms of their effectiveness in deterring repeat abuse, before and after studies suggest that protective orders may deter certain abusers. In Travis County, Tex., over a period of two years before and after order issuance, physical abuse dropped from 68 percent to 23 percent after the orders were obtained, if victims maintained the order. If the abusers were also arrested at the time of the order issuance, the physical abuse diminished further; if they had children, it diminished less. [26] These studies cannot reveal whether or not the abuse would have naturally declined overtime without the orders because, for example, the victims are more likely to have left their abusers when they obtained the orders.
Several Seattle studies compared women who obtained orders to women who were abused (as indicated by a police incident report) but did not obtain orders. They found that women with permanent orders were less likely to be physically abused than women without them. However, women who had temporary orders that lasted only two weeks were more likely to be psychologically abused than women who did not obtain any orders. The women who did not obtain orders appeared at higher risk for abuse, involvement with alcohol and drugs, more likely to have been assaulted and injured as a result of the study incident, and less likely to have been married to their abuser. The study did not look at violations of protective orders that did not involve physical assaults. [120] The second Seattle study found that the orders were more effective nine months after they were obtained than during the first five-month period, significantly reducing the likelihood of contact, threats with weapons, injuries and the need for medical care. [121]
Finally, several other studies that compared women who maintained orders and those who dropped them, or did not return for permanent orders, found that order retention made no difference in reabuse rates. [105, 134] A Rhode Island study involving criminal no-contact orders, issued automatically during a domestic violence arrest, also found that whether victims allowed the orders to be continued for the length of the criminal case and probationary sentences that followed (usually one year) or not, the reabuse rates did not vary. [141]
At least one study suggests that the specific stipulations of the protective orders may make a difference. Specifically, victims are more likely to be reabused if their orders bar abusive contact but not all contact. Compared to women whose orders barred all contact, those that barred only abusive contact were significantly more likely to suffer psychological violence, physical violence, sexual coercion and injuries within one year. [150]
Nonetheless, the research consistently finds that victims largely express satisfaction with civil orders, even if they are violated by their abusers. That would be great if justice were not the purpose of the justice department, if women were the only stake holders in the society whos best interests mattered[134] In the multisite study in Massachusetts, 86 percent of the women who obtained a permanent order said that the order either stopped or reduced the abuse, notwithstanding the fact that 59 percent called police to report an order violation. Upon further questioning, the women expressed the feeling that the order demonstrated to the abuser that the "law was on her side." [182] In a multistate study, victims who obtained orders reported that the orders improved their overall well-being, especially if the abuser had a prior criminal history and was more likely to reabuse. [133] It may be that, even though orders do not stop abuse, they reduce the severity of the reabuse. Alternatively, although they may not affect the extent of reabuse, protective orders make victims feel vindicated and empowered.
Although not studied directly, it appears to be significantly easier for law enforcement to monitor and enforce protective and no-contact orders than to monitor and interrupt abuse in general. This may explain why abusers are significantly more likely to be arrested for protective order violations than other common domestic violence offenses. The rearrest rate for abusers in Rhode Island initially arrested for violation of protection or no-contact orders was 45.6 percent over one year, compared to 37.6 percent for domestic assaults, disorderly conduct or vandalism. [141] Of course, it may also be the case that abusers with orders are generally at higher risk for reabusing than abusers without orders.


http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/intimate-partner-violence/practical-implications-research/ch7/protective-order-effectiveness.htm

Quote:
Published June 2009
Chapter 7. Judicial Responses
Section 10 — How many abusers violate court protective orders?
Research varies, but violation rates have been found to range from 23 percent over two years [26], 35 percent within six months [133], to 60 percent within twelve months [105], and in between at 48.8 percent within two years. IE We dont have the first ******* clue what the answer is

 

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