25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:06 pm
@Arella Mae,
Thanks, Arella. You and I agree on this talk we have, however much we argue otherwise.

But, I see this thread as a feeder. Not that it was meant to be, but that it was subverted.

It's all too bad. Rape is an interesting subject.

I am entirely sorry that the original thread never got discussed, but that vultures came in and not only diverted, but subverted.

You can keep arguing, we differ on that, I see it as filling their needs.

Consider silent disgust.

Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:09 pm
@BillRM,
I'm with you Osso. Firefly? Let's say we blow this joint!

OOPS! This is not addressed to bill
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:11 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
am entirely sorry that the original thread never got discussed, but that vultures came in and not only diverted, but subverted.


What in the hell is there to discuss from the title of this silly thread?

Who is going to take the position that a woman can ask to get raped?

Unless you are talking about role playing at rape and that would not be rape.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:14 pm
@BillRM,
You are leaving out CONSENT.
Quote:

New York State Laws
Explanation of Sex Offense Statute 130 and the NYS Sexual Assault Reform Act (SARA):

Explanation of Sex Offense Statute 130 and the Sexual Assault Reform Act (SARA):
Penal Code section 130 governs the prosecution of sexual offenses in New York State. For many years, prosecutors, victim advocates and legislators argued that New York’s laws needed to be revamped. As a result of their efforts, the State legislature passed the Governor’s omnibus, 52-point bill, Sexual Assault Reform Act (SARA), which became law on February 1, 2001. Since that time, the law has been amended several times.

The following is an interpretation of the New York State Penal Code 130 and changes brought about by SARA. This information should not be substituted for any information or advice offered by your local District Attorney’s Office.

What constitutes lack of consent?

Under New York State law, a sexual offense occurs when certain sexual acts are perpetrated against a victim without his or her consent. The law defines both (1) the behavior and the physical nature (body parts, etc) of a sex offense and (2) the lack of consent involved.

"Lack of consent" is defined in New York State's Penal Law as occurring in the following circumstances:

Forcible Compulsion:
actual physical force.

the threat of physical force, expressed or implied, that puts the victim in fear of being physically harmed or of another person being physically harmed (e.g. one’s child).
the threat to kidnap the victim or a third person.

OR Physically helpless: physically unable to indicate a lack of consent (e.g. because victim is unconscious or because of a physical disability that makes one unable to physically or verbally communicate lack of consent).

OR

Under 17 years of age: New York law states that a person less than 17 years of age is legally incapable of consenting to sexual intercourse or other sexual contact. These laws are typically known as statutory rape laws.

]If the victim is under 13, and the defendant is at least 18, this constitutes a 1st degree sexual offense. 1st degree crimes are considered the most serious ones and carry the longest penalties.

If the victim is under 15 and the perpetrator is at least 18, this constitutes a 2nd degree sexual offense. However, if the defendant is less than 4 years older than the victim, this may constitute an affirmative defense. Affirmative defenses are those in which the defendant introduces evidence which negates criminal liability.

OR

Mentally Incapacitated: when the victim is made temporarily incapable of understanding or controlling his or her conduct because a drug or other intoxicating substance (e.g. alcohol) was given to them without their consent.

OR

Mentally Disabled: when a person suffers from a mental illness or a condition that renders them incapable of understanding the nature of their conduct.

OR

Inmate: when a person is literally or physically under the control of others. Some examples are:
The victim is an inmate in either a state or city correctional facility (i.e. jail or prison)
The victim is committed to a psychiatric institution
The victim is a juvenile held in any facility, if the perpetrator is anyone employed at that facility
The perpetrator is a health care or mental health provider and the victim is his/her client, unless the doctor makes clear that the sex act is not part of the treatment. If the medical provider can prove that s/he informed the client that intercourse was not part of the treatment, and the client consented, then a crime has not occurred. This is a Class E felony.
Penal Code 130 also prohibits workers in Office of Children and Family Services facilities from having sexual contact with patients of those facilities.
OR

Some Factor Other Than Incapacity to Consent: Rape 3 and Criminal Sexual Act 3 have recently been modified with a "no means no" clause. In cases of intercourse only, if the victim expressed that he or she did not consent to the sex act in such a way that a reasonable person would have understood those words or acts as expressing lack of consent, this would be prosecutable as Rape in the third degree or Criminal Sexual Act in the third degree. This makes a case easier for the District Attorney to prosecute because it is based on a reasonable person standard, and not on the specific interpretation of a defendant.


What constitutes a sexual offense?

If any of the following acts are perpetrated against a victim "without his or her consent," as defined above, it is a crime under New York State Law:

Sexual Intercourse: the penetration of the penis into the vagina, however slight-- in other words, if the penis goes into the vagina just a little, not in its entirety, that is considered completed "sexual intercourse". (There is no requirement of physical injury and usually there is no requirement that ejaculation or orgasm have occurred.)

AND/OR

Criminal Sexual Act (Oral or Anal Sexual Conduct): does not require any penetration and occurs upon contact between penis and mouth, penis and anus (rectum), mouth and anus, or mouth and vaginal area.

AND/OR

Sexual Contact: any touching of the sexual or intimate parts of the body whether over or under clothing:
done for the purpose of gratifying the sexual desire of either party
includes the touching of the victim’s sexual or intimate parts by the perpetrator AND the touching of the perpetrator’s sexual or intimate parts by the victim
AND/OR

Forcible Touching: the intentional and forcible touching of another
done for the purpose of degrading or abusing another person or done for the purpose of gratifying the defendant’s sexual desire
includes squeezing, grabbing, or pinching
AND/OR

Aggravated Sexual Contact: insertion of a foreign object (e.g. coke bottle, broom handle, etc.) into the vagina, urethra, penis or rectum.
Insertion of a finger into vagina, urethra, penis or rectum causing injury, constitutes 2nd degree sexual offense
If the insertion of the object causes physical injury, this constitutes a 1st degree sexual offense
If no injury occurs, this constitutes a 3rd degree sexual offense
http://www.svfreenyc.org/survivors_legal.html#A



In the above, this is most important in terms of what we have been discussing:

Some Factor Other Than Incapacity to Consent: Rape 3 and Criminal Sexual Act 3 have recently been modified with a "no means no" clause. In cases of intercourse only, if the victim expressed that he or she did not consent to the sex act in such a way that a reasonable person would have understood those words or acts as expressing lack of consent, this would be prosecutable as Rape in the third degree or Criminal Sexual Act in the third degree. This makes a case easier for the District Attorney to prosecute because it is based on a reasonable person standard, and not on the specific interpretation of a defendant.

No means no.

So, what "expanded" definitions of rape have I been discussing that are not included in NYS law?
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:20 pm
@Arella Mae,
I think I agree with osso that we are filling their needs. They get very frustrated if we don't reply to them.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:21 pm
@firefly,
I agree. Silence on my end.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:23 pm
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:
I agree. Silence on my end.
I 've noticed that JJ, in his wisdom, has not said a word.





David
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:23 pm
@firefly,
And how does that change the meaning of rape in any way or in any manner?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forcible Compulsion:
actual physical force.

the threat of physical force, expressed or implied, that puts the victim in fear of being physically harmed or of another person being physically harmed (e.g. one’s child).
the threat to kidnap the victim or a third person.

OR Physically helpless: physically unable to indicate a lack of consent (e.g. because victim is unconscious or because of a physical disability that makes one unable to physically or verbally communicate lack of consent).

ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:23 pm
@Arella Mae,
Done.




Trust me, this isn't easy.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:24 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
What in the hell is there to discuss from the title of this silly thread?


Then you shouldn't have been posting in here at all if you didn't like the topic.

Start your own thread with a topic you do like.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:24 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

Arella Mae wrote:
I agree. Silence on my end.
I 've noticed that JJ, in his wisdom, has not said a word.





David
ROFL! If he had he would have cleared the thread. He still sounds like a flying dinosaur.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:25 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

Done.




Trust me, this isn't easy.
Oh I know it isn't. We will be there for each other!
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:25 pm
@BillRM,
This changes it

Quote:
Some Factor Other Than Incapacity to Consent: Rape 3 and Criminal Sexual Act 3 have recently been modified with a "no means no" clause. In cases of intercourse only, if the victim expressed that he or she did not consent to the sex act in such a way that a reasonable person would have understood those words or acts as expressing lack of consent, this would be prosecutable as Rape in the third degree or Criminal Sexual Act in the third degree
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:32 pm
@firefly,
How nice to tell me where I can post or not.

The fact that the subject header was silly just told me that someone wished to set up some kind of a straw man to knock down.

But there is nothing to discuss as far as the title is concern as no one is going to take the position here that anyone can ask to be rape.

If a woman is asking to be rape then it can not be rape.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:32 pm
No, let that go to another thread, with swift arguers or not.



This one has been raped enough.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:36 pm
@firefly,
It does not change the meaning from the common law meaning in anyway.

If someone said no then you would need force or the threat of force to have sex with that person.

Just another way of saying the same thing.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:40 pm
@BillRM,
Did you understand that part of the NYS law that says "No means no".

Force, and threat of force, does not apply in that situation.

Look at the law again. After it says force, or threat of force, it says OR...OR..OR
those things do not require force. Force is only one indication of lack of consent. All those other "ORs" do not require force, they are other indicators of lack of consent besides force.

Quote:
Some Factor Other Than Incapacity to Consent: Rape 3 and Criminal Sexual Act 3 have recently been modified with a "no means no" clause. In cases of intercourse only, if the victim expressed that he or she did not consent to the sex act in such a way that a reasonable person would have understood those words or acts as expressing lack of consent, this would be prosecutable as Rape in the third degree or Criminal Sexual Act in the third degree


No means no.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 10:03 pm
@BillRM,
You have missed the whole point of this entire thread.

Rape is sex WITHOUT CONSENT.

That the person used force or the threat of force to accomplish the rape indicates NON CONSENT. But it is only one indication of non consent. NYS then lists all the other indications of non consent--mental incapacitation, etc and "no means no".

Just having intercourse with a woman who says she doesn't want it is rape.

They aren't concerned with force--what makes it rape is NON CONSENT.

That's not my definition. That is NYS law.


BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 10:34 pm
@firefly,
Sorry you can not have sex with a woman again her will with out using force or the threat of force.

If she is just standing there and offering no resisted after saying no, by removing her cloths you had used force.

The law you posted and the old wordings concerning rape is one and the same as there is no example you can come up with where under the new law it would be raped but not under the old meaning.

One and the same in all regards.

hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 11:04 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Just having intercourse with a woman who says she doesn't want it is rape.

They aren't concerned with force--what makes it rape is NON CONSENT.

great, if this were reasonably applied no one would have a problem with it. The problems come in when the woman says yes and then later says that she had fear in her heart so she had to say yes so it was rape. The problem is when a woman says yes and then later has regrets and makes herself believe that it was all the guys fault that it happened, that she really did not want it but was manipulated into it by the mean man, so it was rape.
 

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