25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
Ionus
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 09:14 pm
@firefly,
Stop the pretence of caring. You dont care about sexual assault victims. If you did you would stop all this libbie agenda and concentrate on the men being raped.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 09:20 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
http://www.massachusettscriminaldefenseattorneyblog.com/sexual%20assault%202.jpg
How about if a guy gave u some nice roses that u did not want ?





David
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 09:27 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
How about if a guy gave u some nice roses that u did not want ?


I would thank him for a lovely gesture. And I might give the roses to someone who would appreciate them.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 09:52 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
But, none of this has anything to do with my views on this topic. I'm not discussing rape in terms of gender politics or gender power struggles. I'm talking about rape as a crime of sexual assault. I'm talking about non consensual sex--non consensual sex. Not grudging sex with grudging consent--but non consensual sex.

You were fully on board claiming that the state has the right to withdraw the right to consent to sex when that sex was agreed to after pressure was applied. You and AM were in agreement that any contract made while under any duress at all instituted by the petitioner was invalid on the same grounds as contracts signed under the gun are invalid. I remember wondering how you got to the next step of allowing the state to invalidate the consent after the fact and turn the man into a rapist though, as that is going much farther then simply canceling what ever contract was made for the sex. Bill further pointed out that under the theory of consent the consent could be invalidated by the state if the one person was under duress of any kind even if not caused by the partner, and I think he brought to us a case in Israel were this exact reasoning was being used to allege sexual assault.

You are once again lying about your position to avoid the embarrassment of trying to support it.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 10:28 pm
@hawkeye10,
Question for Firefly which I fully expect her to not have the decency to answer.

Hypothetical: I want sex tonight, wife does not. After she says no I argue my case, I give a list of reasons why I think that she should agree to have sex with me tonight. If she then says yes, if only to shut me up, and we have this sex, does the state have any grounds to come after me for sexual misconduct? If so should the state do so? I am particularly envisioning the state claiming that the consent was never valid because coercion was applied.

Second case: I take a date out to a nice diner. After I put the moves on her.She says no sex for me. I say "I just put out for a nice dinner, I really need you to put out with sex so that I get what I want out of the evening". Date agrees. We have sex. Have I just committed sexual assault?
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 10:49 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
You and AM were in agreement that any contract made while under any duress at all instituted by the petitioner was invalid on the same grounds as contracts signed under the gun are invalid


Instituted by the "petitioner"? The "petitioner"? Laughing Do people "petition" to rape?Laughing

I have no idea what your incoherent pseudo-legalistic ramblings refer to. I never said anything about the "state's right to withdraw consent".
The state regards some individuals as not capable of giving consent, but that is quite different. I never said anything about the "state's right to withdraw consent".

BillRM raised the case in Israel of the "rape by deception". But, he failed to mention that the woman in that case was actually forcibly raped by the man. The "rape by deception" claim was an absurd plea deal that the man was given as a lesser charge.

You were the one who mentioned the "state's right to withdraw consent" in a BDSM case. In that case, apparently, they felt the woman was in a slave/master relationship which left her unable to give free consent. You were worried this would set a precedent in BDSM cases. This was your issue, not mine.

I've never addressed the "state's right to withdraw" consent, nor would I do so. The state can't "withdraw consent"--although a court might determine that consent never existed. That might be the case with an underage minor who willingly engaged in sexual activity but lacked the power to legally consent.

If submission to sexual intercourse is obtained under extreme threat or force, then it is rape. Submission is not consent.

Stop accusing me of lying. I have not lied, and I have no reason to lie. I support the current rape laws and I want them enforced. I also feel under no obligation to continue to defend that view to you, because I have already made myself quite clear about that throughout this thread. Most people want those laws and want them enforced. You are in the distinct minority in your self-serving opposition to the laws. The rape laws are needed, both as deterrents, and as methods of holding individuals accountable for their sexual assaults and violations. You had best learn to live with those laws and keep your sexual behaviors in accord with those laws, if you are really concerned about rape charges and doing prison time.


firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 10:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Question for Firefly which I fully expect her to not have the decency to answer.

Both cases simply demonstrate your selfish need to manipulate other people, in order to gratify your own desires, and your ability to find weak and dependent individuals who are willing to go along with you.

These hypotheticals are meaningless. I want actual, real life cases dealt with appropriately by the legal system.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 11:12 pm
Quote:
It takes two...
Emily Maguire
November 20, 2010

If sex was seen as a collaboration, a pas de deux rather than a battle, sexual assaults would be reduced.

There's a public debate that reoccurs with every high-profile sexual-assault case. It involves people who were not there arguing about who was to blame. Since those discussing the case cannot know what actually happened, they quickly turn to hypotheticals: ''What if she didn't say stop?'' ''What if she had been flirting?'' ''What if she was drunk?'' ''What if everyone was drunk?'' ''What if she was into it, but then regretted it in the morning?'' ''What if she's a known groupie/sex worker/gold-digger?''

Many will answer that it doesn't matter. Sex without consent is never OK. Well, sure, others will reply, everybody knows that ''no means no'', but what if … And the hypotheticals begin again.

Ask anyone if they believe sex without consent is OK and they will say ''Of course not'', yet women continue to be sexually assaulted by men who claim to have muddled up the apparently very complicated matter of consent. Meanwhile, women who have been sexually assaulted continue to be shamed and blamed for ''getting themselves into'' situations where their ''no'' apparently does not mean that at all.

The national conversation about consent - carried out in newspapers, online forums and TV panel shows, and informed by school sex education and public anti-violence campaigns - is usually well-meaning, but it is also dangerously immature. It is important that people understand that nonconsensual sex is a crime, but too often the discussions end up mired in legal definitions. Is this rape? How about this? The aim seems to be to clarify the circumstances in which you can get away with having sex with a reluctant partner rather than to educate about sexual ethics.

If you pay attention to the arguments used in most discussions of heterosexual consent, it is clear that many people understand the relationship between sexually active men and women as an adversarial one. Men fight for sex; women defend against it. Sometimes the fight will be with other men (sexual competitors or sexual gatekeepers, such as fathers), but in the final battle it always comes down to man against woman. There are rules - no means no, do not use physical force - but as long as you stick to them, well, all is fair in sex and war.

Under this model, a woman may say no, but it is the man's job to convert that no into a yes or a maybe or drunken mumbling. As long as he can extract something that could, at a legal pinch, be described as consent he can do what he likes, regardless of her feelings.

The adversarial model of heterosexual interaction rests on the assumption that women do not enjoy sex and therefore, without payment, coercion, grand promises or vats of vodka, they would never do it. And if female reluctance to have sex is natural, so is physical unresponsiveness during the act and seeming distant or teary afterwards.

If you think of sexual negotiation as a battle between a man (who wants it) and a woman (who does not), the idea that certain female behaviours encourage or excuse sexual assault becomes easier to understand. If she was serious about ''winning'' (that is, not having sex) then she would not get drunk, wear a tight dress, flirt, agree to go back to a man's room etc. Engaging in any of these behaviours is like turning up at a battle weaponless.

Suddenly, Peter ''Spida'' Everitt's defence of Collingwood players accused of sexual assault - a tweet in which he told girls they should learn that ''at 3am when you are blind drunk and you decide to go home with a guy it's not for a cup of Milo'' - makes sense. Walking into your adversary's lair in the middle of the night while debilitated by alcohol is asking for defeat. You cannot expect mercy from your would-be conqueror. This dark, misandrist view is often described as ''commonsense''. It is just ''being realistic'' to assume that men are either so weak they cannot stop themselves from raping a vulnerable woman, or so cruel that they will insist on sexually conquering an unwilling woman who was silly enough to trust them.

Parents and teachers of boys - does this not infuriate you, this speaking of men like they are sociopaths who cannot help but rape or manipulate in pursuit of selfish pleasure? Parents and teachers of girls - do your hearts not break at these warnings to girls to be constantly fearful and vigilant?

There is a better way to talk and teach about sexual negotiation and consent, a more realistic and ethical approach that would, I believe, also be more successful in reducing sexual assault. It begins with thinking of sex as the outcome of a collaboration rather than a battle, as dancing rather than fighting.

Consider it: if you ask someone to dance and they say no, there is not an awful lot you can do about it. Sure, you could nag or threaten them or ply them with double-strength drinks, but even if that works you will know they are not really into it. And what if they stop part-way through the song? Are you going to take hold of their limbs and force them to move? Shake their hips for them? You could dance at them while they stand there, I suppose. Is that fun? Would you not rather try to find someone who wants to dance? And failing that, well, the cool thing about dancing is that you can do it alone. It may not be as fun as doing it with a willing partner, but it is better than doing it with someone who does not want to be there.

You will notice the dancing model is non-gendered. This is important. Contrary to popular belief, women do initiate sex and do sometimes pressure or coerce men into having sex with them. The dancing - or collaboration - model of sexual negotiation makes the sex of the initiator irrelevant. Everybody is enthusiastically moving his or her own limbs and making happy noises or the dance party stops. Simple.

Alcohol has to be part of the discussion. Those of us who have been caught on tape re-enacting the Single Ladies film clip know that boozing can lead to enthusiastic participation in activities that cause shudders in the sober morning light. When it comes to sex, the potential consequences of drunken decision-making are more serious. Nevertheless, the ethics of the situation are not especially complicated.

Drunk people have consensual sex all the time, but drunk so that you know who and where you are and what you are doing is not the same as drunk so that you are barely conscious and unaware of your surroundings. If you have been drinking but can still speak coherently and work out how to get home, then you are probably also able to determine whether the person you are hoping to have sex with is in a similar state. That is, they have been drinking but still know where they are, who they are with and what they are consenting to.

And if you are not sure if the other person is able to consent, play it safe and decline to have sex. They might promptly, clearly communicate the wrongness of your assumption, in which case - hooray, get it on. If not, well, you will have done the right thing and there will be other chances to have sex - maybe even with this person - in circumstances where you know you are both into it.

As for regret, well, it happens, but the idea that women often ''cry rape'' because they regret a drunken hook-up is silly. Here is what happens when you report a sexual assault: you must give a detailed statement of everything that happened before, during and after the assault. You may need to go to a hospital to have evidence collected from your body. If charges are laid, you will need to make another formal statement and, if the case goes to trial, you will have to go to court and answer all the questions you have already answered, this time in public and with the questions being asked by someone who wants people to think you are lying. If the person you are accusing is a public figure such as a footballer, people you have never met will debate whether you are a lying whore, a pathetic drunk or just a victim of your own stupidity.

It is hard to imagine someone choosing to go through all that because of sexual regret. That is not to say it has never happened, but the idea that it is a common response to the morning-after cringe is ridiculous. Most people who have regrettable sex while drunk just want to forget about it. Some people who have been raped just want to forget about it, too, of course, which is part of the reason why almost 80 per cent of sexual assaults go unreported.

Some people want to insist consent is complicated, but it does not need to be. Most of the ''what ifs …'' evaporate when you think about sex as a collaboration rather than a battle. If the desired outcome is mutually enjoyable sex (however the participants define that), then only enthusiastic participation throughout will do. I am not suggesting anything other than that is rape, but not-rape should not be the ethical standard we set ourselves or teach to young people.

For those still confused about the difference between collaborative, enthusiastically engaged-in sex and possibly-legally-defensible-not-rape, consider the words of ''Clare'', the young woman who unleashed a storm of debate when she spoke about her experience in a New Zealand hotel room with 12 rugby league footballers: ''They never spoke to me, they spoke just to themselves, amongst themselves, laughing and thinking it was really funny. When you have sex with someone … it's nice and you talk and you touch and this was awful. This was nothing like that.'' A human being was ignored, talked over, laughed at and about during ''consensual'' sex. A human being was left traumatised and suicidal after ''consensual'' sex. Does the fact that the police decided not to press charges against the men make this OK? What if she said yes? What if she did not struggle? What if she was drunk? What ''what if'' would make you feel OK about having this kind of sex?

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/it-takes-two-20101119-180u4.html
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hawkeye10
 
  -4  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 11:39 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Some people want to insist consent is complicated, but it does not need to be. Most of the ''what ifs …'' evaporate when you think about sex as a collaboration rather than a battle. If the desired outcome is mutually enjoyable sex (however the participants define that), then only enthusiastic participation throughout will do. I am not suggesting anything other than that is rape, but not-rape should not be the ethical standard we set ourselves or teach to young people
If only "enthusiastic participation throughout" was the bar that sex needed to pass in order to stay kosher we could immediately strip 90% of human sexual acts. I dont care to set the young up with unrealistic expectations, as this is setting them up for failure....it make them feel like failures for not measuring up to what has been falsely claimed to be the norm.

Sometimes we have no interest in sex,but when do it for our mates, as a gift to them....and this is not only OK but is to be cheered. Generosity is a good thing to encourage.

BTW- conceptualizing negotiations as an attempt at collaboration does away with none of the flaws in consent theory.
hawkeye10
 
  -4  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2010 11:45 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
I want actual, real life cases dealt with appropriately by the legal system.
As predicted, you refuse to stake your position, most likely knowing full well that you cant defend it.
0 Replies
 
Below viewing threshold (view)
hawkeye10
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 12:01 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Firefly in my opinion does not care about rape or the welfare of men or women for that matter she care instead of forcing her either asexual or lesbian viewpoint on sexual matters on all of the rest of us by the use of the state power.

My guess is that she has over time become corrupted by the pursuit of power and righteousness. I'll tell you though, her willingness to lie about her position or else keep her position secret in the attempt to win a debate point is damned annoying. I wonder about the workings of a mind that pins so much importance upon respect when it belongs to a person who does not have enough respect for themselves to say what they mean and mean what they say. The lack of personal integrity with her is stunning.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 12:01 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Rape or sexual assault is just a tool and a mean to the end to interfere with the normal sexual behaviors of men and women and their rights to engage in these behaviors.


Idiot--You have no right to engage in non consensual sex and you have no right to sexually assault anyone.

You think of rape and sexual assault as the "normal behaviors of men and women"?

http://www.jrj-socrates.com/Cartoon%20Pics/Comics/Farside/Caveman_304.gif

Do you have to actively work at sounding like such a moron, or does it come naturally to you?
BillRM
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 12:34 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Idiot--You have no right to engage in non consensual sex and you have no right to sexually assault anyone.

You think of rape and sexual assault as the "normal behaviors of men and women"?


You wish to take away the rights of adults to engage in consensual not non consensual sex.

You wish to place men at risk of being charge with rape for such silliness of consent by fraud or rape due to regret after the fact.

Not one person here had question that sex by force or threat of force or drugging behind someone back is not rape however it is not rape when an adult woman jump into a sleeping man bed and begin sexual activity with him no matter if she had cloud her own judgment by alcohol or not before hand.

No adult had a duty to protect another adult from his or her own poor judgment and to state otherwise as you had done in not only unfair to the person you wish to placed the burden of acting as a guardian but is also unfair to the person you wish to removed the right of adulthood from.

You wish to add fear to normal consensus sexual relationships to the benefit of neither men nor women.

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 12:43 am
Rapists tend to repeat their crime...this one couldn't control himself even in a jail.
Quote:
Prosecutor: Rapist awaiting trial assaults elderly teacher in jail
By Laura Crimaldi
November 23, 2010

A Level 3 sex offender awaiting trial on charges he cut off his GPS monitoring bracelet and raped a Framingham woman in February was indicted today on charges he attempted to rape an elderly teacher at a Gardner prison, authorities said.

Inmate William French, 29, is accused of assaulting a female English teacher at the North Central Correctional Institution on Nov. 10, said Timothy Connolly, a spokesman for Worcester County District Attorney Joseph D. Early Jr.

He is charged with assault to rape, kidnapping, two counts of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon on a person over 60 and six counts of assault and battery on a person over 60, Connolly said. His arraignment is set for Dec. 2 in Worcester Superior Court.

The attack took place at about 3:30 p.m. in the third-floor staff bathroom of the program building, prison officials said.

The teacher was treated at Heywood Hospital in Gardner for non-life threatening injuries, officials said.

French also faces charges he ambushed a woman outside her home as she returned from work, forced her inside and sexually assaulted her twice on Feb. 18.

French later forced the woman to drive him to an ATM to withdraw money from her bank account and then to drive back to the residence, prosecutors said. When they got back, French cut off his GPS device and sexually assaulted the woman a third time, prosecutors said.

That assault took place just two days after a judge ordered French to wear a GPS monitoring bracelet for one year because he had violated the terms of his probation by testing positive for smoking pot Jan. 4.

French was released from state prison in December after serving eight years for a 2001 aggravated rape conviction, prosecutors said.
http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20101123prosecutor_rapist_awaiting_trial_assaults_elderly_teacher_in_jail/srvc=home&position=also
BillRM
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 12:52 am
@firefly,
Please take note that Firefly had once more posted a case of sexual assault that no one here have even for a second question is not rape in the hope it would seem that her expanded concept of rape will somehow in some strange manner transfer from these cases of real rapes to cover her nonsense.

Either that or she does indeed get off by postings the details of such cases.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 12:55 am
@firefly,
Quote:
You have no right to engage in non consensual sex and you have no right to sexually assault anyone.
Dont change the subject. It is about consensual sex.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 01:00 am
All women have to be concerned about the possibility of rape. This man was just sentenced to 20 years for raping a woman in a public bathroom--he crawled under her stall and assaulted her. He was previously convicted for raping a college student last year, and he still faces trial on two more cases. Rapists tend to repeat their crimes.
Quote:

Rapist gets 30 more years in 2nd attack
Kris Wernowsky
November 23, 2010

A Pensacola man convicted and sentenced to prison earlier this year for sexually assaulting a college student received another sentence Monday in a 2007 sexual assault.

Jaworski Lee Simmons, 29, of Pensacola is charged in four separate sexual assaults and still faces trial in two other cases, a prosecutor said Monday.

Circuit Judge Terry Terrell sentenced Simmons to 30 years in state prison Monday as his second victim broke down and wept in the back of the courtroom.

"For months I would not go outside. I couldn't trust a man," Assistant State Attorney Diane Stefani said in a statement from the victim. "I would like this man to pay for the harm that he has done to me."

Stefani later detailed how Simmons held his forearm over the victim's throat until she passed out during the attack.
The News Journal does not publish the names of sex-crime victims.

Monday's sentence comes in addition to the 20 years he received in the April 2009 rape of an 18-year-old Pensacola Junior College student.

The sexual assault happened after the student was followed into a restroom. The student's attacker crawled under a stall, choked her and sexually assaulted her.

The judge ordered that Simmons serve the sentences consecutively meaning he'll serve 50 years in state prison. He is also designated a sexual predator.

Court security deputies kept a close watch on Simmons whose hands were handcuffed and covered with restrictive gloves. Deputies said that he is prone to outbursts.

Simmons said the media attention surrounding his cases has made it impossible for him to get a fair trial and that he believed the jury was tainted by news coverage.

"They indicated during jury selection that they were not familiar with you or your case," Terrell said.

Simmons' next trial is scheduled to begin Jan. 10.
http://www.pnj.com/article/20101123/NEWS01/11230320/1006/NEWS01/Rapist-gets-30-more-years-in-2nd-attack

Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2010 01:02 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Rapists tend to repeat their crimes.
I have no problem with repeat rapists and child molesters being executed.
0 Replies
 
 

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