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Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
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Intrepid
 
  5  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 05:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:

Men should take responsibility for themselves. Then, there would be no problem
40% of the college girls we call raped dont think that they were raped, doesn't it follow that even a larger percentage of the guys dont think that they have raped??

Your logic has a hole big enough to drive a aircraft carrier through...

What you really want is to demand that everyone accept your standards and definitions, and then follow your rules. This is you trying to abuse the rights of others. Your argument assumes a consensus on what is sexually wrong behaviour that you know for a fact does not exist, this is you following Fireflys MO of intellectual dishonesty


Do you even try to use common sense? Do you think you make the terms and definitions of the law? I assume nothing. I am using facts.

You, on the other hand, use nothing but your own behaviour and views on women and sex to make an argument that is as out of step with society as you are.
Intrepid
 
  5  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 05:49 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
You will never get it!

Men should take responsibility for themselves. Then, there would be no problem.

But, you will never understand that.


And women should have zero responsibilities for their own sexual behaviors under the influences of alcohol they had pour down their own throats.

You are right Hawkeye and I will never understand that.



That is because you are as dense as a rock.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 05:52 pm
This is horrible. Killed because she refused her uncle's sexual advances.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/10/07/mother-told-missing-daughter-dead-live-tv/?test=latestnews
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 07:00 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
I probably look at this all wrong, but I've worked in several "rough" environments - and I think in order not to be a whiner and a target all the time - if you choose to go into locker rooms (or other rough work environments), you have to have a thick skin. If some jock wiggled his Johnson at her, she would have gotten a great deal of respect by casting a discriminating eye and saying any number of things to meet his wager and raise the stakes...centering on size issues. How about IGNORING such things - like a doctor, who has to see people naked all the time? Just don't see it. Of course, if anyone is ever fool enough to cross the line and touch you or push you up against a wall - knock the **** out of them. Let THEM explain to the media... Things like whining about nudity - in a locker room - give chicks a bad name...
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 07:41 pm
@Intrepid,
These two yo-yos are just playing games. And they have been repeating the same nonsense over and over throughout this thread. They aren't interested in the topic of rape--they discuss everything but the fact that women are being raped.

Hawkeye is making up his own definitions. Even he can't be so dumb as to not realize that a rapist may have to use force precisely because the woman is non consenting. Rape has always been non consensual sexual intercourse/sexual contact, and he knows that too. He won't admit it because that invalidates his point that the definition of rape has changed. It hasn't changed.

And we do have a consensus about what constitutes "sexually wrong behavior"--that is what all the sexual assault/abuse laws are about. They represent society's consensus on what is not acceptable. But, when you point this out to Hawkeye, he accuses you (and me) of intellectual dishonesty. As far as I can tell, neither of us is being dishonest in the slightest. On the other hand, Hawkeye is flat out denying factual reality and he seems to have no compunctions about lying in order to accomplish that denial. Hawkeye wants rape laws eliminated or weakened so he can satisfy his own peculiar sexual appetites without having to fear arrest. He doesn't care that the laws function as deterrents because he has no concern for those who are victims of rape or those who are potential victims (which could really be everyone). His interest is only himself.

BillRM is simply a blithering idiot who seems to be arguing that rape isn't even a problem. He harps on statistics despite the fact that everyone with common sense agrees that the statistics are only approximations because rape is an under-reported crime. But, to listen to this fool, one would think it hardly occurs at all. He thinks it's a joke. And his mocking attitude is more revealing of his hostility than anything else. Finding humor in a discussion of how people are abused and assaulted is rather sick. If we tried to discuss the topic of breast cancer, he'd probably find that a real knee slapper and make boob jokes.

Both of these jerks seem to think they are engaged in some sort of debate or argument that they think they are winning. What is there to debate? Rape occurs. It happens to females of all ages, and it happens to males also. It occurs under a wide variety of circumstances in many different types of situations. It is a global problem. It is a global crime. And it is a crime which damages its victims in considerably more far-reaching and personal ways than crimes of property do. There is nothing to argue about, there is no debate to win. There are only issues to discuss in some search for solutions. And denying the problem, or blaming the laws, or quibbling about statistics, does not help to address the issue that people continue to be raped and violated because rapists ignore or disregard the legal issue of consent.

That college women, who feel they have been coerced into sex they did not want, or used for sex while in a drunken state, often cannot bring themselves to label such experiences as "rape" does not mean that these women do not feel they were not violated or sexually assaulted. Shame can prevent one from acknowledging a rape--even to oneself, let alone to an interviewer. There is also a stigma associated with being a rape victim. These women did report having experiences that fit the legal definition of rape--but they couldn't bring themselves to use the word "rape". That didn't mean they were not very upset about those experiences, or that they just tossed them off. That is a misinterpretation of the data. Similarly, what college man wants to think of himself as being "a rapist", even though his behavior may fit the legal definition of rape. So college men use all sorts of rationalizations, and rape myths, and rape apologies, about their sexual behaviors, to keep themselves from feeling like "rapists". But when these young men are educated about rape laws, and about consent, and they realize they have violated these laws, many of them do experience strong feelings of guilt, because they never realized they were harming women. No man who cares about, or likes women, and who regards them as people, and not just sex objects or penis receptacles, wants to knowingly hurt them.

But listening to Hawkeye, or BillRM, one would never know that those being raped are real people, with real emotions about what was done to them. These are people, not numbers, not statistics, we are talking about. Rape damages and destroys real lives.

Hawkeye said:
Quote:

I want facts/evidence and argument...... Firefly does not have the goods it appears.


In this thread alone, he heard first hand from three survivors of rape. If he doesn't consider their stories as "evidence" that the crime of rape occurs and significantly impacts victim's lives, nothing will convince him, and there is little point in trying to reason with him.

Hawkeye is using this thread as an invitation to mount his soapbox and go into his usual rant about "feminists". BillRM is using the thread to relieve the apparent boredom of his life by making inane, poorly thought out comments, and hostile remarks, which he, no doubt, feels are clever and witty, but which really reveal him to be incredibly stupid and emotionally insensitive.

I admire your efforts to expose these jerks, and to put them in their place. But I honestly feel it is a waste of time. They enjoy the attention. It gives them a sense of self importance. They think they are actually intellectually jousting with us. These mental midgets couldn't win a debate if their life depended on it--they don't have the reasoning skills, they don't have the intellectual flexibility, and they just don't have the "smarts". They're just engaging in mental masturbation, and filling up space on a page with vacuous nonsense.

We should both save our breath. Let them prattle to each other.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 08:02 pm
@firefly,
One has to wonder how would they feel if it was their daughter or their wife that was raped? What if tomorrow that happened? Do you think it would make a difference? I am praying it would make a difference but I sure hope that no one they know gets raped.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 08:29 pm
@Lash,
Quote:
Things like whining about nudity - in a locker room - give chicks a bad name...


That female reporter didn't whine about nudity. As far as I know, there was no nudity. When she was in that locker room, other reporters were in there too--it was a work environment, the players were doing their post-game "work" with interviews. It's not as though she barged in when it was only the players changing their clothes. The players are expected to behave differently with reporters around after a game.

I think she complained about being made to feel very uncomfortable because of sexist comments and looks directed at her by the players. And I think her complaints were initially made in Tweets to her friends, without any intention of making a public fuss about it. She did ignore what went on in the locker-room--she didn't respond to it directly when she was in there, and it would not really have been professional on her part if she had responded to it--she was in there waiting to do an interview, and she wanted to be treated as a reporter and not as a "hot babe". She is an attractive women, and she dresses in a way to show off her attributes--that's her prerogative. The players could just enjoy looking at her without doing or saying anything to make her feel uncomfortable while she's doing her job. And that's what the NFL said too, that the players behaved unprofessionally.

I've worked in "rough" environments too, and you do have to have a somewhat thick skin. But you also have to have some lines drawn about what's acceptable and what isn't in terms of how females are treated in a primarily male work environment--particularly when their presence may still be something of a novelty. The players were working in that locker-room, just as she was, and they get paid enough that it is not unreasonable to expect them to behave themselves in terms of how they treat female reporters. I don't think the incident, by itself, was a very big deal, and it served a purpose of reinforcing some guidelines for the players behavior, so hopefully that sort of thing won't happen to the next female reporter.

But I really didn't have the impression that this reporter is a whiner, or that her complaints were unfounded. I think what really got her ticked off was people saying "she asked for it" because of the way she dresses. Regardless of how she dresses, she's entitled to be treated with respect when she's working--even in a locker-room.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 08:44 pm
@firefly,
I think she is a teaser personified, with a ballooned ass, at least in some photos.

On the other hand, there is/may be, by now, standard locker room behavior in most reporting circumstances. I'm a fem on my own terms and I don't think well of her, though her moves may be work promoted, let's hire boopsy. There are sharp female sportswriters apparently accepted in the locker room.

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firefly
 
  6  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 09:09 pm
@Arella Mae,
I believe Hawkeye has said that his children were sexually abused, I think by a babysitter, and he said his wife had been sexually abused before he married her. I think he has also said he was sexually abused. While those experiences might not have been rapes, you might think it should have raised his consciousness of the harm done when one person sexually exploits another.

I don't think anything would make a difference with him. His main aim seems to be satisfying his own particular sexual appetites--period. And some of his sexual appetites conflict with the laws, so he hates the laws. He really can't see how things like child pornography harm actual children--the children in those pornographic images and photos--or how consumers of that stuff encourage the manufacture and distribution of more of it. He feels it's harmless. He wants to be able to obtain and possess it without fear of arrest. It's all about what he wants and he needs to satisfy his sexual appetites. And "conquest" is part of his sexual gratification with women, because he's told us that. And "conquest" means domination, it means you overcome the woman's resistance, and that may cross the line and become rape. So, he hates the rape laws because they can put him at risk.

BillRM is just thick as a brick. Because his first wife accused him of physically abusing her, which he claims was a lie, he's obsessed with the false accusations business and the idea that no woman can be trusted when she makes a rape report, because all women lie. So, it's all personal with him too.

As long as these two have their own personal axes to grind, nothing will get through to them. Truthfully, Arella Mae, that's their problem and not ours. I really don't care whether they understand or not. I just hope that neither of them ever winds up as a juror on a rape case because they are incapable of being objective.
Arella Mae
 
  3  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 09:14 pm
@firefly,
I hope they never get on a jury. I have to say this, I don't believe Hawkeye about anyone he knows being raped, not even himself. His attitude is completely out of character for a person that has been raped.
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Lash
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 09:20 pm
@firefly,
Thanks for the info, firefly. I still tend to think that guys and girls will be guys and girls in a locker room full of testosterone (or estrogen, as the case may be)...sounds like much ado about what should have been deferred good-naturedly by a person in that particular location after a game. But, I understand dissenting opinions. I guess where we differ is where that line should be drawn...I don't think she got to the right place yet.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 09:27 pm
@Arella Mae,
That story is horrible, Arella Mae. And how horrible that the mother learned of her daughter's death in that manner. The mother had been insisting her brother-in-law was innocent. Who knows whether the uncle had tried to molest the girl before and either the girl never told her mother, or her mother didn't want to believe it. It's just a horrible, and tragic story.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 09:33 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

I probably look at this all wrong, but I've worked in several "rough" environments - and I think in order not to be a whiner and a target all the time - if you choose to go into locker rooms (or other rough work environments), you have to have a thick skin. If some jock wiggled his Johnson at her, she would have gotten a great deal of respect by casting a discriminating eye and saying any number of things to meet his wager and raise the stakes...centering on size issues. How about IGNORING such things - like a doctor, who has to see people naked all the time? Just don't see it. Of course, if anyone is ever fool enough to cross the line and touch you or push you up against a wall - knock the **** out of them. Let THEM explain to the media... Things like whining about nudity - in a locker room - give chicks a bad name...
I don't really see how your value system here opposes mine (apart from your conclusion of blaming the victim.) I've employed lots of pretty girls, who, as tipped employees would sometimes choose to wear clothing that accentuated their attributes. Some would laugh off the guys who'd push the envelope and some would get uncomfortable. My reaction depended as much on the girl's reaction as it did on the man's behavior, because it is precisely her reaction that determines whether or not he’s out of line. (A young stud may not come off as offensive, while behaving in the exact same manner as a creepy old guy, for instance.) Regardless of how well some women (a firecracker like yourself for instance) can and do handle jerks; a jerk remains a jerk, and if said jerk is under contract with the NFL to NEVER behave as a jerk while under their employ; he should expect to be sanctioned accordingly. I doubt the NFL would react any differently if their behavior was such to insult an obese woman, or a handicapped man for that matter. Their broad language of "detrimental to the NFL" is somewhat vague, but not so much so that common sense won't keep a guy out of trouble in this type of situation.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 10:12 pm
These home invasion rape/burglary crimes, like the one currently being tried in Connecticut, can really be horribly brutal. This man appears to have committed two of them. In the first one, he raped two female college students. In this latest case, he raped an 11 year old boy and nearly decapitated the boy's father. He apparently doesn't care about the gender of his rape victims, or whether they are adults or children--rape is rape.
Quote:

Suspect in brutal Cambridge attack suspected of raping two women in Brighton
October 7, 2010
By Travis Andersen and John R. Ellement, Globe Staff

CAMBRIDGE – A Cambridge man is being held on $1 million cash bail, charged with raping an 11-year-old boy and nearly decapitating the boy's father during a brutal armed home invasion in the Cambridgeport neighborhood in August.

"The apartment was a bloody mess'' when police arrived, Middlesex District Attorney Gerard T. Leone Jr. said at a press conference at Cambridge police headquarters today. "They arrived there because of the frantic 911 call that was made by the 11-year-old boy.''

Marcos A. Colono is also a suspect in a Sept. 21, 2008 rape of two female college students in Brighton, but has not yet been charged criminally for the attack in which a man forced two college-aged women to lie on top of one another while he assaulted them, authorities said.

Prosecutors said they believe Colono's DNA profile will match biological evidence collected from both the Brighton and Cambridge sex crimes because lab tests already show the evidence is from the same person.

A not guilty plea was entered on Colono's behalf at his arraignment in Cambridge District Court in Medford on charges of home invasion, armed assault with intent to murder, and two counts of rape of a child by force. He was ordered held on $1 million cash bail.

Colono is the brother of Michael Colono, 18, who was stabbed to death by then-Harvard graduate student Alexander Pring-Wilson in 2003.

Marcos Colono, officials said, was directly linked to the Aug. 26 attack inside a two-family Pearl Street home by a handprint left behind by the attacker, and a Boston police fingerprint record collected after Colono was arrested on an unrelated crime some time ago.

Middlesex Assistant District Attorney Katharine Folger said in court that police had responded to the adult victim's apartment in Cambridgeport shortly after 1 a.m.

Police determined that Marcos Colono had entered the apartment with a large butcher knife, Folger said, forcing the son to lie on top of his father in the living room while he looked for money to steal.

He later brought them both into the father's bedroom, Folger said, where he assaulted the boy at knifepoint.

After the boy refused to continue complying with Colono's demands, he allegedly stabbed the father eight to 10 times in the neck and three times in the back, in an apparent attempt to sever his head, according to Folger.

Folger said a bloody handprint on the wall matched prints on file in a 1998 arrest of Colono.

Colono's court-appointed lawyer, Benjamin Selman, said during the arraignment that the bail was excessive.

He said there was "no positive ID" made of his client "besides this alleged handprint."

Selman said Colono was born in Cambridge and has lived in the area his entire life.

He said Colono, who has a 15-year-old son, obtained his GED in 1994 and has worked "intermittently" in construction.

He said Colono's prior arrests were for shoplifting and assault and battery and he had defaulted on the cases about 12 years ago.

Colono was concealed from view behind a door today during the hearing.

Colono's mother and sister were in attendance but did not speak to reporters.

In 2003, Colono had harsh words for Pring-Wilson. "People want to know why a Harvard student would do such a thing. He was drunk, carrying a knife, and arguing with people on the street. To me, he was nothing but a Harvard thug," Marcos Colono said at the time.

Today, Leone said it is only a "coincidence'' that one Colono brother is a victim of a crime while another is now charged with committing a "horrific'' crime.

In Cambridgeport this afternoon, a woman came to the window of the Pearl Street home where the attack occurred but did not answer the door.

Alex Karutsky, a neighbor, said he was thrilled to learn of the arrest.

"That's great," he said. "Are you kidding? That guy was a scary guy, he just about killed (the man)."

Karutsky said he has not seen the adult victim since the attack but heard from a friend of the man that he is recovering from his injuries.

"Emotionally, I think he's carrying some baggage," he said.

Informed of the sexual assault charges, Karutsky said of the assailant, "he's a sick guy."

A woman walking her dogs who lives around the corner from the crime scene said she was frightened when she first learned of the attack but then focused on the victims.

"I was worried about, was the guy going to die?" said the woman, who declined to give her name.

Neither Karutsky nor the woman said they knew the adult victim well, though Karutsky said the two had shoveled snow together.

There was no answer at Colono's apartment in the Woodrow Wilson Court housing development in Cambridge, located a few hundred yards from where the victims were attacked in the Pearl Street house.

A neighbor, Basil Jones, said he sometimes knocks on Colono's door with his mail, and Colono just pokes his head in the doorway to say thank you.

"I never see his whole body," Jones said.

He said he thought Colono lives in the apartment with a woman, who he had seen earlier in the day carrying a plate of food into the unit.

At the press conference at Cambridge police headquarters, Suffolk District Attorney Daniel F. Conley applauded crime scene technicians who collected the key evidence that may soon directly link Colono to a vicious set of crimes.

“On a personal level, it’s a monumental relief for four victims whose lives were turned upside-down when their homes were invaded and their bodies violated by a man no one could identify,'' Conley said.

Conley said efforts are now underway to charge Colono for the Brighton attacks.
http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/cambridge/2010/10/suspect_in_brutal_cambridge_at_4.html
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 10:21 pm
@firefly,
It's hard for me to read this thread.

Now there is a ploy of elaborating rapes as reported, to show how horrible they are.

Why would I want to read that? Not amused. I think of it as feeding a maw.
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