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Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
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firefly
 
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Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2010 10:59 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
Who is Bill and Hawkeye? Smile

http://poietes.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/he-man-woman-haters-club-bw.jpg

Laughing Laughing Laughing
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mysteryman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2010 11:02 pm
Forgive me if this has been brought up, I havent read the entire thread yet.

To answer the question, NO a woman cannot ask to get raped.
Rape is an act of violence, and nobody asks for violence like that.

However, I can see how it can happen to some women because of their actions (and if that sounds like I am blaming some women its because I am).

We all have seen it, a woman is in a bar and finds some guy that is free with his money.
She comes on to him, crawling all over him, doing everything short of oral sex, promising him the world, in short teasing him to no end.
He spends all his money on her, then she leaves with her girlfriends.

While I dont condone rape in that instance (its still a crime), I can understand how a man would react that way.

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firefly
 
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Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2010 11:47 pm
@mysteryman,
So, because she acted like a tease, let some slob pay for her drinks, and then didn't "put out" for him, you can understand why she's "asking to be raped"?

Because he thought he was buying some sex and she got him pissed off?

Well, you've got one thing right--rape is often motivated by anger and done to punish a woman.

But it happens because the man isn't controlling his aggression, he's expressing it through a sexual assault. And the man who reacts like that is a rapist.

Nothing entitles a man, like that stranger in a bar, to feel that the woman "owes him" anything, let alone sex. She flirted, she teased, she got him excited--and that was all she wanted to do. She didn't force the guy to blow his money buying her drinks. The man bought her the drinks figuring he "got lucky" and would get a roll in the sack. He figured he was buying some sex. The woman wasn't a prostitute, she wasn't selling herself to him--she was only flirting, fooling around. The man simply made a fool of himself. He should be mad at himself for falling for it.

So, should women have to worry that if they get a man mad at them they might get raped?

I'm not saying that what the woman did was right, but she wasn't "asking to get raped", nor did she "deserve" to get raped. There is never an excuse to rape anyone. Just because you're angry doesn't mean you have to act on it, or should act on it.

I can understand why some men rape too. Understanding it doesn't justify or excuse it.

Glad you dropped by, mysteryman. That was a good example. Hope you hang around, look through the thread, and continue to join in the discussion.



mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 12:20 am
@firefly,
I didnt say that the man in my example was right, I specifically said he was wrong and I didnt condone it.
I was merely pointing out that I could understand the anger and the emotions involved that would cause it to happen in the scenario I laid out.
firefly
 
  6  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 12:47 am
@mysteryman,
I know you weren't condoning it, and I really didn't mean to imply you did.

And while I can understand the anger too, I'm not quite sure I can really understand why that anger would necessarily motivate a sexual attack on the woman. Perhaps that's because I'm female. Perhaps it's because I'm not an aggressive person. Perhaps it's because I don't think like a rapist. I don't connect sex and aggression in that way, I can't imagine wanting to sexually assault someone, to hurt them in that way, for any reason.

I also think the man in your example has just as much reason to be angry at himself, for being taken, as he has to be angry at the woman. And I don't condone what she did either.
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firefly
 
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Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 02:23 am
This is really a very thoughtful and good article. It was apparently written before the Kobe Bryant rape case was resolved, but Mr Berkowitz seems to understand what may have happened--Bryant could have been an unintentional perpetrator, he may thought he had the woman's consent when he really didn't. That is completely consistent with what Bryant himself finally said when the criminal case ended and he publicly apologized to the woman.

The discussion of different types of rape in this article is well thought out.
Quote:

Understanding That There are Different Types of Rape
Alan D. Berkowitz Independent Consultant September, 2003

The charges against Kobe Bryant have brought renewed attention to the problem of sexual assault. They provide us with an excellent opportunity to educate ourselves about this important issue. While the facts of the case are not known, there has been considerable speculation in the media about what may have happened. The story provides an interesting challenge because the alleged perpetrator is widely liked and is seen as a person of character and integrity by many, characteristics not consistent with the public's understanding of a perpetrator of sexual assault.

Researchers have long known that there are many motivations for sexual assault and therefore that there are many types of rapists. Rape can be committed out of anger, sadism, and/or a need for power and control in a manner that is intentional, premeditated and coercive. Many perpetrators who intentionally take advantage of someone may claim in self-defense that they had permission. What is often overlooked is that it is also possible for a perpetrator to rape someone while believing that he had permission to have sex. This possibility also needs to be considered along with all the others that have been discussed. Sexual intimacy must be consensual at all times and this consent should be affirmative and clear. It is the responsibility of anyone desiring sexual intimacy with another person to make sure that consent is present. Thus, anyone who proceeds with sexual intimacy with another person without their affirmative consent is wrong and has committed sexual assault regardless of motivation. It may shed some light on the Kobe Bryant case to understand that one of the many possible scenarios that we can consider in the absence of additional evidence is that he committed rape while believing that he had consent when he didn't.

If a man falsely believes that he has consent and goes ahead with sexual activity he is responsible for committing a sexual assault even though he may not realize it. He may think of himself as someone who would never perpetrate sexual assault. As a result, if he is accused he will feel upset and experience a range of emotions, including shock, surprise, indignation, and incredulity. In short, he will feel falsely accused. Because he really believes that he had permission he will be sincere and convincing in his denial. When such sincere denial is combined with a reputation for being a good person, it is likely that the victim will be blamed instead. All of our myths and misunderstandings about what rapists are like and all of the myths that serve to blame victims for their victimization will come into play, as they already have in this case.

I believe that male professional athletes may be at risk of committing sexual assault – unintentional or intentional – for a number of reasons. They live in a culture that expresses and promotes traditional models of masculinity that are often associated with belief in myths about when sex is justifiable. In addition, male professional athletes are often exposed to female fans who are very willing to have consensual sex. As a result, they can become careless about ascertaining consent. Athletes can confuse fans who are impressed, awed, and flattered with fans who want to have sex. Differences in power, status, and age can further exacerbate these situations and lead perpetrators to confuse passivity with consent. As a result, athletes may in some cases engage in mutually consenting sex, but in other cases they may intentionally take advantage of the situation or think that they have consent when they don't.

In my own professional experience I have found that men who are being trained to play a leadership role in preventing sexual assault often realize that they may have assaulted someone in the past, especially as they began to fully understand the conditions of affirmative consent. Unlike intentional perpetrators, these men experience remorse and guilt and are willing to channel these feeling into actions to end violence against women.

At present we do not know what happened between Kobe Bryant and his accuser. I believe that the possibility of unintentional perpetration should be part of the discussion about this case until it is ruled out by further evidence (for example, premeditation, use of force, and/or if the victim had injuries).

Lack of intent to rape should in no way be construed as lack of responsibility for raping. If consent was not freely and clearly given then an accused perpetrator had no justification for sexual intimacy. One of the important educational tasks facing all of us who want to end sexual assault is to teach men about the conditions of consent and the possibility of unintentional perpetration. However large or small their numbers, these men are excellent candidates for rape prevention education because they do not want to rape.

Alan Berkowitz is a nationally recognized expert in the prevention of sexual assault prevention who has developed innovative programs to foster men's responsibility for preventing sexual assault and written extensively about this subject. Many of his articles, including guidelines for consenting sexual intimacy and about what men can do to prevent sexual assault are posted on his website.
http://www.mencanstoprape.org/info-url2699/info-url_show.htm?doc_id=192319


This is what Kobe Bryant said when the criminal case was closed
Quote:
“ First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo.

I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant_sexual_assault_case


By that admission, Bryant admitted he did rape the woman, albeit not "intentionally"--but rape is rape. He made the admission of his rape in exchange for her not using it against him at the civil trial and in exchange for her dropping the criminal complaint. His public admission of the rape does reflect favorably on his character--a lot of other well known known athletes, in similar situations, would never do that.


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firefly
 
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Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 01:02 pm
What's really ironic about the Kobe Bryant situation is the fact that, in post after post, he's been paraded out as an example of "false accusations"--a deliberate lie about being raped, told by a woman to harm a man. Bryant admitted he raped the woman. Even if he "mistakenly" thought he had consent, he didn't--and that is rape, and that is why he publicly apologized to the woman. This was not a case of a woman deliberately lying about a rape--and Bryant admitted that.

For the same reason, the Duke lacrosse players case is not really an example of a woman deliberately lying to hurt those particular men who were accused and charged with her rape. There was an honest photo misidentification by the woman in that case, they were harmed by a crooked D.A. The Duke students publicly said they forgave the woman and felt she had been victimized too.

Only someone with no regard for the truth, and a motivation to discredit all women, would continue to parade out these cases to prove that women deliberately lie about rape.

No one condones a woman lying about being raped.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 01:08 pm
This is an update on that New Jersey incest trial. The man's ex-wife was the first witness. Her story is just incredible..
Quote:

Ex-wife describes descent in NJ incest rape trial
By SAMANTHA HENRY (AP) – 20 hours ago

PATERSON, N.J. — The former wife of a man accused of raping and impregnating his daughters described their relationship Tuesday as a "first love" that descended into insults, beatings and a grip that prevented her from leaving the house to give birth or send the children to school.

Although their first two children were born in hospitals, the husband became increasingly paranoid about doctors and vaccinations, eventually prohibiting her from any pre- or postnatal care, the wife testified as the first witness in his sexual assault trial.

After she defied him by sneaking one newborn to a pediatrician for shots, he beat her and dangled their baby by an arm, dislocating the shoulder, she testified. By the time she was pregnant with their third child, her husband insisted on delivering the baby — and all future children — at home, she said.

"There were times there wasn't any physical assault — for a month or two — and I would wonder what I was doing right," the woman testified. "I never knew what would trigger it; every day I never knew: Is this a day I would get beaten or the kids would get beaten?"

The man, who was arrested in 2006 and ruled competent to stand trial this year, has pleaded not guilty to 27 charges including sexual assault, lewdness, child endangerment and criminal sexual contact. Tuesday marked the start of the first of five trials — one for each child he's accused of victimizing.

The man is accused of raping five of his daughters and impregnating three, who are believed to have given birth to a total of six children. The Associated Press generally doesn't identify victims of sexual crimes and is not reporting the name of the man or his wife to protect the identities of their children, who are now older than 18.

Prosecutors said in opening arguments that the man believed God was commanding him to create a pure family bloodline, while the defense urged jurors to keep an open mind amid the "fantastic" details they would hear. Jurors, who knew only that they would be hearing a sex assault trial that involved incest, sat rapt in state Superior Court in Paterson.

The former wife recounted on the witness stand how the pair, now both in their early 50s, met as high school students in the 1970s in Paterson, a working-class city about 10 miles outside New York City.

Describing the man as her "first love," she said she became pregnant at 17 and married him shortly after their daughter was born. They eventually had nine children.

She described how, as a young couple, their once-playful arguments and mildly physical fights escalated into steady beatings and insults that gradually undermined her confidence.

He also tightened the rules on every aspect of their family life, she said, increasing restrictions on what they were allowed to eat and when and telling her the ultimate goal was to become subsistent on air and water alone. She said he made her refer to him as "My God."

None of the children attended school, the woman testified, though she tried to teach them at home by creating her own lesson plans. Those born at home had no birth certificates or Social Security numbers, had never been to a doctor and weren't allowed to interact with other children or the woman's family, she said. They were routinely beaten for violating house rules, such as opening a refrigerator door, she said.

When questioned by the prosecution about why she stayed with the man for so long, the woman said she had been isolated from her family and saddled with several young children while she was still in her early 20s, with no friends to confide in.

Authorities say the assaults on the children began in the mid-1980s and lasted until 2002, when the parents separated, and occurred at homes in Paterson and nearby East Orange, Orange and Eatontown.

The proceedings were briefly delayed Tuesday morning when the defendant, through his lawyer, accused Superior Court Judge Raymond A. Reddin of taking $100,000 from a New York City lawyer to bring charges against him.

Reddin said the claim had no merit, that he didn't know the lawyer in question and that he had only recently learned of the case after inheriting it from another judge.

The trial had been delayed last week after the defendant told Reddin he was assaulted by a prisoner during transport. A court-ordered examination found no evidence of assault.

Because the trials will be held separately, Reddin ruled this year that jurors can hear testimony about the home atmosphere but not specific allegations of sexual abuse that pertain to the other cases. The daughter named as the victim in this first trial is expected to testify later this week.
Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iBDFz1E4v1FYA6j3irsG9wYuwefQD9IH75801?docId=D9IH75801

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