19
   

Roman Polanski free

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 11:21 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Genocide is genocide. War crimes are war crimes. Mass murder is mass murder. And the USA is pretty much out in the lead as the world leader. The facts clearly point to the USA as the number one terrorist state on the planet.

you know darn well that my wife is in the Army (recently promoted to SGM!) and that I am not going to follow you there. Me agreeing that you have a point is all you are going to get.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 11:24 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
you know darn well that my wife is in the Army (recently promoted to SGM!) and that I am not going to follow you there. Me agreeing that you have a point is all you are going to get.


See what I mean, Aidan. And Hawkeye inadvertently, or not so inadvertently admits that he knows this is true.
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 11:27 pm
@JTT,
Yeah- and implies that his wife's career is more important, and a deciding factor in his complicit silence.

And unfortunately - isn't that just human nature? We sacrifice those we don't know for those we do.

How do we change that though JTT?

JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 11:30 pm
@aidan,
Don't ever let anyone, ever, get away with telling you a lie about America again. That's a start, a big start.

How come something that's so eminently sensible has to be stated?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 11:32 pm
@aidan,
Quote:

Yeah- and implies that his wife's career is more important, and a deciding factor in his complicit silence


Bullshit, I know close at hand of wrongs done, I also know of those who have worked from the inside against those wrongs, and I know some who got away with wrongs, and I know something of the pressure exerted on our soldiers day after day, year after year that greatly contributed to those wrongs.

If you wanted to talk about how America has tried to do war on the cheap and as a direct result has chewed up good people and allowed bad people to do bad things I would be right there.

How about we get back to thread topic?
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 11:35 pm
@JTT,
How do you know I don't already confront people with their lies about America when I know I'm being told a lie - because in fact I do.

Then what?

It's not that I don't care - it's that I don't know what else I can do beyond speaking my mind and voting my conscience and teaching my children to care about others, no matter where they live.

But like I asked - then what? Because I don't see much change resulting from simply caring and speaking out.

aidan
 
  0  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 11:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
Yeah Hawkeye - I said it was human nature. We all should and do care about putting food in our children's bellies.

I was just asking JTT how it helps anyone to ignore any injustice in favor of another. I don't think it does- because I think that's what sets the precedent and contributes to the ethos of letting **** slip under the rug on any scale.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 11:53 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
Yeah Hawkeye - I said it was human nature. We all should and do care about putting food in our children's bellies
or it could be what I am telling you, that when you see the problem up close you get a more complicated picture, it is impossible for me to go along with the one sided simplistic view that JTT has not out of self interest, but because it is not that way.

It is a bit rich accusing me of going along to get along, don't you think? I dont roll that way.

Quote:
I was just asking JTT how it helps anyone to ignore any injustice in favor of another. I don't think it does- because I think that's what sets the precedent and contributes to the ethos of letting **** slip under the rug on any scale.
You have to prioritize in this life. We all do it all the time, our brains do it automatically. If we did not we would go crazy in short order. You really do need to pick your battles.

aidan
 
  2  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 12:01 am
@hawkeye10,
Well, any thirteen year old girl getting forcibly sodomized or raped is worthy of a battle, in my opinion. It doesn't matter to me if it happened at Jack Nicholson's estate or in a war zone in Afghanistan.

It also absolutely disgusts me to watch a member of the elite getting away with something for which a member of the proletariat would spend his life in prison.

So I also think the struggle for people to receive equal treatment under the law is a battle worth fighting.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 12:20 am
@aidan,
Quote:
So I also think the struggle for people to receive equal treatment under the law is a battle worth fighting
Justice is only partly and sometimes about equality, so no. Besides, equality is not obtainable, it can be a worthy pursuit but once we forget that it is not real we are in trouble. We end up like the Greyhound chasing the rubber rabbit, tricked and conditioned into doing what others want while chasing something that we are never going to get.

0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 04:48 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Thanks for clearing that up, Intrepid.

It's easy to comprehend the word hypocrisy springing to mind when you consider that OB bathes in it. It is his essence.

Read his signature:

The hottest fires in hell are reserved for those who remain neutral in times of moral crisis. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. (Edmund Burke)

Quote:
Roman Polanski is a child molester and rapist who deserves more than what he got....which was nothing.


And what of the members of the CIA and their bosses. The ones who are responsible for untold numbers of murder, rape and torture. What of Oliver North who smuggled drugs into the USA in order to supply arms to a terrorist group who raped, tortured and murdered?

What of the,

Quote:
There's a lesson in all of this. And the lesson is that it isn't only Gestapo maniacs, or KGB maniacs, that do inhuman things to other people, it's people that do inhuman things to other people. And we [that 'we' is the government and the people of the United States] are responsible for doing these things, on a massive basis, to people of the world today.

And we do it in a way that gives us this plausible denial to our own consciences; we create a CIA, a secret police, we give them a vast budget, and we let them go and run these programs in our name, and we pretend like we don't know it's going on, although the information is there for us to know; and we pretend like it's ok because we're fighting some vague communist threat. And we're just as responsible for these 1 to 3 million people we've slaughtered and for all the people we've tortured and made miserable, as the Gestapo was the people that they've slaughtered and killed. Genocide is genocide!







If O Bill is the essence of hypocrisy then you are the king/queen of the straw man and non sequitur.

What do you find hypocritic about O Bill's signature line. He does make a point. Just not the point you want it to make. Which is, to agree with you.
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 08:15 am
Some breaking news today. Hawkeye, take note.

News Alert
Top court upholds internet luring ruling

The Supreme Court of Canada has upheld the conviction of an Edmonton man who lured a 13-year-old boy on the internet for sex.


0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 08:52 am
@aidan,
Quote:
How do you know I don't already confront people with their lies about America when I know I'm being told a lie - because in fact I do.

Then what?


I don't, Aidan and this,

"How come something that's so eminently sensible has to be stated?" wasn't at all pointed at you, though you may well have taken that it was.

Quote:
But like I asked - then what? Because I don't see much change resulting from simply caring and speaking out.


Speaking out all ways and at all times would help. Americans have been so seriously deluded by their governments, by their whole system. It continues today in Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, ... .

Challenge Cycloptichorn and Tico and Okie and whoever else passes on the the lie that America is not a terrorist nation. The facts are too abundant, too crystal clear. It really is a crying shame that all that America pretended it was, it wasn't and isn't. The poor people of third world countries have suffered too long, too much.

Demand that the criminals responsible, and criminals they are, be held to account.

Do whatever you can. That's all that anyone can ask.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 09:12 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Bullshit, I know close at hand of wrongs done, I also know of those who have worked from the inside against those wrongs, and I know some who got away with wrongs, and I know something of the pressure exerted on our soldiers day after day, year after year that greatly contributed to those wrongs.

If you wanted to talk about how America has tried to do war on the cheap and as a direct result has chewed up good people and allowed bad people to do bad things I would be right there.


Quote:
or it could be what I am telling you, that when you see the problem up close you get a more complicated picture, it is impossible for me to go along with the one sided simplistic view that JTT has not out of self interest, but because it is not that way.

It is a bit rich accusing me of going along to get along, don't you think? I dont roll that way.


What a truly laughable notion! What absolutely serf-serving claptrap!

The war crimes committed by America, its troops and its proxies is the result of poor policy planning by America which has resulted in the deaths of some 5 to 6 million people, ruined lives, deformed babies, starving children, ... and we are supposed to feel sorry for the troops.

How many meals a day do they, do their children miss? How many of their children are deformed from chemical weapons used indiscriminately and wantonly? How many of their children have had legs and arms blown off by cluster bombs and mines spread over the landscape? How many of their children are exposed to depleted uranium? How many of them have lost children to the terrorist actions of other nations?

Remember, these are all people that the US makes out they are trying to help.

It's not at all rich to accuse you of going along to get along because that is exactly what you're doing. You are willing to make up excuses, really ******* lame ones, in order to point things away from war crimes, terrorism, mass murder, use of WMD, ... .

That's a crime in and of itself.

0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 09:20 am
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
She said it was consensual? Where


That has been in the news recently. The woman was basically a groupie at the time and nobody in those days checked ages for groupies. The fact that the woman herself doesn't give a rat's ass about the thing and the DA does strongly indicates that the problem is with the DA.
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 09:23 am
@Intrepid,
Quote:
If O Bill is the essence of hypocrisy then you are the king/queen of the straw man and non sequitur.


You don't see the hypocrisy in the US demanding justice be served when the US deliberately and flagrantly refuses to allow justice to be served upon the numerous war criminals/terrorists/mass murders that it clutches to its bosom.

You don't see the hypocrisy in the US whining about other countries not living up to UN resolutions when the US commits war crimes/terrorism against other poor innocent countries and then refuses to abide by ICJ rulings and UN resolutions.

Read,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

and come back and tell me there's no hypocrisy here.

Quote:
What do you find hypocritic about O Bill's signature line. He does make a point. Just not the point you want it to make. Which is, to agree with you.


If you hadn't and haven't noticed OB many defenses of the US and its war crimes, then there's no use explaining it to you.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 12:12 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
That has been in the news recently. The woman was basically a groupie at the time and nobody in those days checked ages for groupies. The fact that the woman herself doesn't give a rat's ass about the thing and the DA does strongly indicates that the problem is with the DA.


She never said it was consensual. Don't forget, in 1993 she sued Polanski in civil court for sexual assault and won a judgment of at least $500,000+ against him. She feels that he raped her.

She wasn't a groupie. She was with Polanski because he was allegedly doing a photo shoot of her for a magazine cover. That required a contract. He knew exactly how old she was. He gave her alcohol and a drug, and he had sexual intercourse, anal intercourse, and oral sex with her, despite her having told him, repeatedly, she did not want to engage in these activities. And then he told her to keep it all a secret and not tell anyone what had occurred. These facts were never disputed.

I really think the problem with this case is that they had originally worked out a plea bargain agreement that would have given Polanski little or no jail time.

Originally, Polanski was incarcerated for a court ordered 90 day psychiatric evaluation. The deal was that he would receive time served and could go free after the evaluation if he did not appear to be seriously disturbed or dangerous. The evaluation was finished in only 45 days. Polanski's lawyers allegedly understood that he would then be given no further jail time, if he entered a plea of guilty for having had sex with a minor, and that the other, more serious, rape charges against him would also be dropped as part of the plea deal.

Just before the sentencing, the judge in the case, who had also agreed to the plea deal, appeared to be changing his mind about the sentence. Possibly he might have wanted Polanski to do the additional 45 days in jail (the balance of the original 90 days), or possibly he was considering a much longer sentence (I think Polanski could have gotten up to 50 years on the original charges against him), and the issue of deporting Polanski also came up. At that point, because he feared a stiff jail sentence, Polanski fled the country. So the legal criminal case against Polanski was never concluded. He still remains charged with the original 5 felony counts against him, including rape (not just statutory rape, but also assaultive, adult equivalent, rape).

What went on with that plea deal is the reason the Swiss gave for recently releasing Polanski and refusing to extradite him to the U.S.. They apparently don't have to extradite someone who faces a sentence of less than six months. They claim they requested transcripts and notes from the L.A. D.A.'s office that would have clarified the length of the sentence Polanski might have been given in 1977, and the terms of the plea deal, but that they never received this material. The D.A.'s office says they sent everything requested. So, the Swiss decided to release Polanski on a rather small technicality in the extradition laws, rather than return him to the U.S. where the whole mess could have been more properly straightened out in the California courts.

In the last 33 years, nothing has changed in the case against Polanski. The plea deal was never finalized with a sentence, so he is still charged with all the original felonies, and he has been a fugitive from justice for all that time. There is an investigation going on in California to try to sort out the facts of the original plea deal, including looking into the judge's behavior and thinking about the case. This should be done. They have to determine exactly what transpired with that plea deal. Was Polanski told he could go free after 45 days if he entered that guilty plea? Did he owe the state another 45 days? Was the judge going to renege on the deal and sentence him to years in prison? This stuff needs to be sorted out in order to insure that the D.A. and judge bargained with Polanski in good faith, and with fairness 33 years ago.

The legal case against Polanski can't be resolved or concluded unless, and until, he physically shows up in a California courtroom. The D.A. has no reason to drop the charges against Polanski, the original grand jury indictment still stands, and Polanski admitted he had sex with the 13 year old. They had a case against him 33 years ago, and they still have a case against him. They can insist on a trial, or they can offer him a new plea bargain. The decision about how they wish to handle this remains with the D.A.'s office. The victim has no input into any of it. This is an unfinished criminal case. He is still a fugitive, and there is still an Interpol warrant calling for Polanski's arrest.

33 years ago, no one seems to have wanted a high publicity celebrity trial of this sordid nature involving a 13 year old. Everyone seems to have wanted to resolve this quickly, partly to shield the 13 year old, and partly to avoid a media circus of a lurid trial. But the original plea deal offered to Polanski, a mere 45 days in jail (or at most 90 days), seems absolutely ridiculous given the serious nature of the felony charges against him. From the outset, Polanski deserved a longer sentence than that.

Polanski's celebrity, money, and influence was always a factor in this case. And it is still a factor in this case, including why the Swiss did not extradite him. And, let's not forget that the victim has also apparently received a hefty sum of money from him (at least $600,000, but possibly much more) that might bias her comments. But, just because Polanski has status, money, influence, and power, does not mean he is above the law. That's the real point of this now. He is still a fugitive. He is still evading a legal system that has a right, and an obligation, to pursue him and hold him responsible for his criminal actions.

Polanski has never wanted to take responsibilty for what he did, or accept any punishment for his crimes. That's been clear for 33 years.



hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 12:50 pm
@firefly,
A good video with both the victim and Polanski, where they both agree that it was not consensual.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/roman-polanski/story?id=8705958

One thing that keeps bothering me is that the DA makes a big deal about Polanski "drugging her" and raping her. In fact she was at the time a pretty hard core druggie, who liked to drink. That she did those things that day is neither here nor there, she did not ingest these under any force.
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 01:07 pm
@hawkeye10,
She was 13 years old. You make it seem as if she was an adult. Even if she was an adult....she was raped
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 01:26 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
She was 13 years old. You make it seem as if she was an adult. Even if she was an adult....she was raped
that is the law. She was 13 going on 18 but according to the law this does not matter. It might have mattered to Polanski on that day, but he was wrong, as he has said.
0 Replies
 
 

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