19
   

Roman Polanski free

 
 
Intrepid
 
  4  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 07:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
This situation has nothing to do with the wishes of the victim
My argument is that it should, that the laws are miswritten.

Quote:
A rape is not a "private affair".
The state has an obligation to look out for the children, to look over the shoulder of the parents, so in some cases the state has a valid claim to put sexual cases in the legal system even if the victim and the parents don't want it there. But as a general rule I argue that sexual matters should not be in front of a judge unless one or both parties desire it to be so. I think that the laws should be rewritten to reflect that. And the children victims should be able to overrule the state when they reach majority.


No, the laws are not miswritten. They are there for a reason and that reason is to act as a deterrent to criminal behaviour. If someone does not take it as a deterrent, then that person should have to deal with the consequences of the law.

It is inconceivable, to me, that you take such a strong stand advocating for the right to have sex with children. A child cannot make the decision to leave school; leave home; walk around naked; or a miriad of other things yet you want them to be able to have sex with adults as if it is normal behaviour. You, sir, are one sick sob.

Take that to your collective!
snood
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 08:13 pm
word
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 08:27 pm
@hawkeye10,
The problem is, how are they going to know why the victim doesn't want them prosecuted? The laws are what they are. We cannot go around bending them at the wishes of the victims.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 08:38 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
The problem is, how are they going to know why the victim doesn't want them prosecuted? The laws are what they are. We cannot go around bending them at the wishes of the victims.
laws can be changed. If you want to know what the victim wants then ask them, this is not brain surgery here...

Victims should have a place to go like they do now, either an NGO or the Emergency room. Part of the intake should be the question "do you want law enforcement notified?" If the answer is yes then the cops come, find out what the deal is, put the victim in protective custody if need be till they make the case against the perp, and then nail the perp to the wall if he/she is guilty.

If the answer is no then the medical and saviour community look after the victims medical and emotional needs, just like they do now.

I fail to see where the problem of leaving the victim in control of how their abuser is handled...is. It seems empowering to me, as apposed to now where the state runs in wanted or not and decides what to do, often to the detriment of the victim.

If the victim does not want law enforcement in then the state will not know why, and this is fine. The state does not have a right to search through individuals minds and lives to know motivation. I am sure that the saviours would demand the right to continue to attempt to manipulate victims into cooperating with the law as they do now, but I see this as revictimization, and would not have it if it where up to me.
Arella Mae
 
  3  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 08:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
So a man is a rapist and the woman doesn't want to prosecute him so we should just let him go so he can rape again? Seems pretty empowering to me - FOR THE RAPIST. (Caps only for emphasis.)
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 08:53 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
So a man is a rapist and the woman doesn't want to prosecute him so we should just let him go so he can rape again? Seems pretty empowering to me - FOR THE RAPIST. (Caps only for emphasis.)
this is a free country, you will always be allowed to try to sell your case that these guys should be prosecuted. You obviously lack faith that your argument will sell. Maybe you have a weak argument. Or maybe you are letting fear control you.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  3  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 08:53 pm
@Arella Mae,
Shame on you. Trying to confuse Hawkeye with logic.
snood
 
  3  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 08:57 pm
Sheez. Wotta sicko.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 09:03 pm
@Intrepid,
Intrepid wrote:

Shame on you. Trying to confuse Hawkeye with logic.
ROFL at me being accused of being logical!
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 09:17 pm
@Intrepid,
Intrepid wrote:

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
This situation has nothing to do with the wishes of the victim
My argument is that it should, that the laws are miswritten.

Quote:
A rape is not a "private affair".
The state has an obligation to look out for the children, to look over the shoulder of the parents, so in some cases the state has a valid claim to put sexual cases in the legal system even if the victim and the parents don't want it there. But as a general rule I argue that sexual matters should not be in front of a judge unless one or both parties desire it to be so. I think that the laws should be rewritten to reflect that. And the children victims should be able to overrule the state when they reach majority.


No, the laws are not miswritten. They are there for a reason and that reason is to act as a deterrent to criminal behaviour. If someone does not take it as a deterrent, then that person should have to deal with the consequences of the law.

It is inconceivable, to me, that you take such a strong stand advocating for the right to have sex with children. A child cannot make the decision to leave school; leave home; walk around naked; or a miriad of other things yet you want them to be able to have sex with adults as if it is normal behaviour. You, sir, are one sick sob.

Take that to your collective!


No response, Hawkeye?
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 09:27 pm
@Intrepid,
If he would let a murderer go free merely because he wasn't caught for 18 years it doesn't surprise me a bit that he doesn't see a problem with child rape. ..................they will call good evil and evil good.

Prime example!
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 09:29 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
. But as a general rule I argue that sexual matters should not be in front of a judge unless one or both parties desire it to be so


I think that one has to distinguish between "sexual matters" and sexual crimes.

Sexual crimes don't come before a judge unless someone reports the crime to the police and the D.A. decides to prosecute. Generally, it is the victim who reports the crime, if we are talking about adults. When someone reports a crime, they want the perpetrator arrested and tried (and probably convicted). So, we know what this party desires.
They cannot prosecute a sexual case without the cooperation of the victim. They need her testimony. If she is seen in an ER following a rape and refuses to cooperate with the police, there isn't much they can do. This lack of cooperation goes on all the time with battered wives because they are too frightened to press charges. Woman are often fearful of reporting rape, or pressing a rape charge, for many different reasons. That's why the rapist never gets arrested.

You can't ask the perpetrator what they desire in terms of disposition. You don't expect the victim of a sexual crime to work out a private deal with the perpetrator do you? I'm not really sure what you are talking about. Michael Jackson trying to pay off the families of children he molested? That kind of deal? You can't protect society with this sort of arrangement,

I have no problem with sexual crimes remaining in the courts, that's where I think they belong. I believe in the criminal justice system. I believe that juries generally try to be fair and impartial. I think the adversarial system works. The appeals process helps to insure fairness.

I do have a problem with certain sexual behaviors being considered crimes. Those things I would consider "sexual matters" rather than crimes. For instance, sodomy laws should not be used to prosecute homosexuals or invade the privacy of either homosexuals or heterosexuals, when the behavior occurs among consenting adults (or minors above the age of consent). I don't think it is the government's business what type of sexual behaviors consenting adults engage in in private. In the past several decades many sodomy laws have been struck down, but some states still have them. I'd favor repealing all of them.

The case we have been discussing, with Polanski, was not a sexual matter, it was a sexual crime. It was reported to the police by the victim. She wanted the government to act and to arrest Polanski. Apart from giving testimony, and concurring with the plea deal, she had no further role in this case, nor should she. Had Polanski had a jury trial, she would have had no control over the verdict, or the length of any sentence he would receive. And she certainly would not have had any authority to alter that outcome when she was an adult. Since Polanski copped a plea, the victim's role in this case ended at that point. It's the media who drag her back into it. He admitted guilt. She has been legally out of this case since 1977.

Quote:
And the children victims should be able to overrule the state when they reach majority.


If the state has obtained a conviction on a sexual crime involving a child, that child cannot have any authority to overturn a verdict when they reach majority. That's crazy. Is that what you mean?

Look, Polanski's victim has said all along that he raped her. She's never said otherwise. He's already admitted his guilt. He just didn't hang around to be sentenced. That victim, now a grown woman, can't just say to the court, "Forget it". The legal situation with Polanski had passed that point 33 years ago. He had his day in court, he plead guilty, but then he skipped the country. The legal system has a right to demand his return in order to pass sentence. The case is not concluded until that sentence is passed, and the victim cannot dictate that aspect of the justice system.


0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 09:35 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
No response, Hawkeye?
I have responded. To sum up if you are wronged sexually you have the right to expect the collective to go get the bad guy if you desire such. However, as a citizen you have the right only to make choices for yourself, not for others. It is wrong of you to demand that a person who is wronged do what you would do. Courts are there for you if you wish to use them to address your problem, you should never be compelled to use them, to do so is a violation of your individual sovereignty. Also, as a citizen you do not have the right to run over other people, especially people who have already been hurt, in your futile quest to protect yourself and others from all harm. You might want all rapists to be turned in, you don't have the right to demand that they are. If the victim knows they have that option but decide not to pursue it they probably have a pretty good reason, and their needs wants and desires count more than yours do, they have been hurt and need to recover.

You consistently assume that I am arguing for the rights of abusers, when I am really arguing for the rights of victims. Victims who are currently often re-abused by those who care only about how many sexual wrong doers they get to punish. The whole system has become inhumain, I would like to see it reformed.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 09:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
To this day I don't think I have ever heard a woman say "okay so I was raped no big deal. Who cares if they catch him or not?"

You speak of the system being inhume but you'd let a MASS MURDER off the hook because he was lucky enough to not get caught for 18 years. Since he was a good boy and only lied and ruined countless other lives AFTER HE KILLED you'd let him out into society without paying for his crime and FREE TO DO IT AGAIN. And why wouldn't he? He got away with it the first time, right?

Your empowering that you want to do only empowers the criminal not the victim. Way to go, way to care about protecting your community. I suppose if you knew there was a child sex offender in your neighborhood you'd take him an apple pie because you heard he hadn't raped a 13 YEAR OLD CHILD in months. Unbelievable.

I do have the right to DEMAND that any criminal pay for his crime and so do you. Try exercising it even if it's just to protect those around you.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 09:55 pm
@hawkeye10,
You certainly have a strange way of arguing for the rights of victims. Most everything I have read by others on this thread makes sense and is provided in a well thought out manner. What I have read from you seems to come from an irrational and shoot from the hip method of dialogue. You have not substantiated one thing that you have put forth. You choose to ignore the laws of the land and want to change them. I have not seen anybody agree with you on this. You are alone in the forest with no way to get out.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 10:46 pm
@Intrepid,
Thanks for clearing that up, Intrepid.

It's easy to comprehend the word hypocrisy springing to mind when you consider that OB bathes in it. It is his essence.

Read his signature:

The hottest fires in hell are reserved for those who remain neutral in times of moral crisis. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. (Edmund Burke)

Quote:
Roman Polanski is a child molester and rapist who deserves more than what he got....which was nothing.


And what of the members of the CIA and their bosses. The ones who are responsible for untold numbers of murder, rape and torture. What of Oliver North who smuggled drugs into the USA in order to supply arms to a terrorist group who raped, tortured and murdered?

What of the,

Quote:
There's a lesson in all of this. And the lesson is that it isn't only Gestapo maniacs, or KGB maniacs, that do inhuman things to other people, it's people that do inhuman things to other people. And we [that 'we' is the government and the people of the United States] are responsible for doing these things, on a massive basis, to people of the world today.

And we do it in a way that gives us this plausible denial to our own consciences; we create a CIA, a secret police, we give them a vast budget, and we let them go and run these programs in our name, and we pretend like we don't know it's going on, although the information is there for us to know; and we pretend like it's ok because we're fighting some vague communist threat. And we're just as responsible for these 1 to 3 million people we've slaughtered and for all the people we've tortured and made miserable, as the Gestapo was the people that they've slaughtered and killed. Genocide is genocide!




hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 10:50 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
And what of the members of the CIA and their bosses. The ones who are responsible for untold numbers of murder, rape and torture. What of Oliver North who smuggled drugs into the USA in order to supply arms to a terrorist group who raped, tortured and murdered?

What of the,
you are a little touched, but you do have a point.....Americans have lost the ability to prioritize, lost the ability the measure the value of things, lost the ability to concentrate on things that matter over things that don't...
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 11:01 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
but you do have a point.....Americans have lost the ability to prioritize, lost the ability the measure the value of things, lost the ability to concentrate on things that matter over things that don't...


The folks who are touched are the ones who go into denial mode when faced with these stark facts.

You don't know the half of it. But still you try to sluff off these hideous and heinous crimes, crimes that are every bit as bad as what the Germans did, what the Russians did, as something that Americans have lost?

Genocide is genocide. War crimes are war crimes. Mass murder is mass murder. And the USA is pretty much out in the lead as the world leader. The facts clearly point to the USA as the number one terrorist state on the planet.

aidan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 11:05 pm
@JTT,
Wouldn't it be nice if we could say that we didn't sluff off anyone's crimes against anyone?

How does it help any oppressed people to have any oppressors let off the hook?

Why does it have to be an either/or sort of choice?

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2010 11:21 pm
@aidan,
That would be a truly joyous occasion, Aidan, one that would go a long long way to reducing the violence that plagues this planet.

It's an either/or because the vast majority of Americans buy into the propaganda that they are spoon-fed. Go to your library and get,
Unreliable Sources - A Guide to Detecting Bias in Media Sources by Martin A Lee and Norman Solomon

It catalogs the lies that pass as everyday media fare. It buries the silly but wide-spread notion that the media is slanted left.
0 Replies
 
 

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