19
   

Roman Polanski free

 
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 12:26 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

Quote:
Oh I see. Someone gets raped as a child, grows up and rapes someone else and it's not their fault? If that isn't the biggest load of dung! There comes a time when we have to grow up and take responsibility for our lives. We have a choice when things happen to us: 1) we can become just like the ones that hurts us; or 2) we can overcome and be something better.


Intellectually, I agree with this. But I also know that when you have childhood abuse mixed in with certain physiological tendencies and environmental deprivation - it's a whole lot easier said than done.


Indeed it is a whole lot easier said than done. I totally agree. But, the responsibility of how we handle what has been done to us is what do we do with that? If we turn around and become what we hated in the first place then I don't see how we (the victim) can complain about what happened that we now claim made us this way. Events can and do shape our lives and I do realize there are people that are not able mentally to overcome these things. I am speaking of those that are able to make decisions about what has happened and where they go from there.

In Ted Bundy's case "they" say he suffered two major traumas to his "psyche." One, he found out his sister was really his mother and two, a woman dumped him! He killed countless women. I don't think we'll ever know how many. This was a very intelligent man. Educated, good looking, personable, etc. He could have made the choice to overcome those two events and make something of his life. Many have said he would have been a brilliant lawyer or politician. He is one I would call just plain evil and definitely someone that needed to be separated from society (or as the collective as someone on this thread calls it.)

How we decide what abuse in someone's childhood was so horrendous that it in any way excuses or justifies the crimes they may now have committed? That is my issue with hawkeye.
Arella Mae
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 12:37 pm
@manored,
manored wrote
Quote:
And what is it to "grow up"? Do you think children magically transform into someone else then they reach a certain age? No. A murderous child will be a murderous adult. People do not have a choice between good and evil, they simply become either way. Actually, I dont like these concepts, that is, "good" and "evil", because they are cheap oversimplifications of life.[/quote}

[quote]Obviously criminals need to be punished or re-educated in some way, but there is no reason to hold hate or resentment, no matter how grave the crime. To hate someone for what they are is to hate human nature itself: The only thing, besides one's experiences in life, that define what they are is their initial state, that is, what they were born like. Too hate humans is to hate the fact humans can become something we hate.

Hate is the worse emotion I know. It does nothing but harm both the hater and the hater. Its odd to say this, but I hate then I feel hate because it hurts me deeply.


You must live on the same planet as hawkeye. What do you mean people do not have a choice between good and evil? If someone asks you to help them murder someone you don't have a choice? You aren't (fill in whatever word fits here) to say, um, no, murder is WRONG and I'm not going to do it? You don't have the ability to say robbing a bank is wrong? Telling a lie is wrong?

Where did anyone say anything about holding hatred for them? We are talking about crime and punishment here.

hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 01:22 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
How we decide what abuse in someone's childhood was so horrendous that it in any way excuses or justifies the crimes they may now have committed? That is my issue with hawkeye
It does not excuse it, but the health system is the proper institution to deal with this, before they hurt someone. After they do then the justice system is, but if it gets this far then we have failed.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 01:32 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
You post as if there are NO safe places for victims. Where have you been? Ever googled how many homeless shelters, abuse shelters, halflway houses, support groups, etc., are out there?
I was clearly speaking of no place for victims to go to seek help where their lives will not be shredded. Anyplace they go will mandatory report to law enforcement, most of which are under mandatory laws to arrest, and then case then goes to DA'a who are under mandatory laws to prosecute.

Most people who are being abused by someone they care about do not want the abuser distroyed, in fact much of the time that gravely negatively impacts the victims life, but the choice the victims have now is report to anyone and see their life go bye-bye, or keep quiet. I think increasingly as people have become aware of this we have them choosing to be quiet. Eliminating the mandatory reporting would actual increase the usefulness of the saviour community organizations, because more people would be willing to use them.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 01:36 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
We are talking about crime and punishment here.
such is the pitty....we should be talking about raising sexually healthy adults, and when this fails providing a mechanism for the twisted to get what they need from consensual relationships, and how best to find ways to support them doing this.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 02:16 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
I am the same and even asked for the proof. Of course, JTT did not provide it. The reason for my response in the manner it was. Same old song over and over from JTT. Getting real stale real quick.


I didn't provide it because I believed that you would backtrack as fast as your little legs could carry you, Intrepid. I didn't provide it because I thought that I had provided it, in this thread, to Arella Mae.



Quote:

THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA: part II
CIA COVERT OPERATIONS IN CENTRAL AMERICA, CIA MANIPULATION OF THE PRESS, CIA EXPERIMENTATION ON THE U.S. PUBLIC

by John Stockwell

a lecture given in October, 1987


John Stockwell is the highest-ranking CIA official ever to leave the agency and go public. He ran a CIA intelligence-gathering post in Vietnam, was the task-force commander of the CIA's secret war in Angola in 1975 and 1976, and was awarded the Medal of Merit before he resigned. Stockwell's book In Search of Enemies, published by W.W. Norton 1978, is an international best-seller.

...

To destabilize Nicaragua beginning in 1981, we began funding this force of Somoza's ex-national guardsmen, calling them the contras (the counter-revolutionaries). We created this force, it did not exist until we allocated money. We've armed them, put uniforms on their backs, boots on their feet, given them camps in Honduras to live in, medical supplies, doctors, training, leadership, direction, as we've sent them in to de-stabilize Nicaragua. Under our direction they have systematically been blowing up graineries, saw mills, bridges, government offices, schools, health centers. They ambush trucks so the produce can't get to market. They raid farms and villages. The farmer has to carry a gun while he tries to plow, if he can plow at all.

If you want one example of hard proof of the CIA's involvement in this, and their approach to it, dig up `The Sabotage Manual', that they were circulating throughout Nicaragua, a comic-book type of a paper, with visual explanations of what you can do to bring a society to a halt, how you can gum up typewriters, what you can pour in a gas tank to burn up engines, what you can stuff in a sewage to stop up the sewage so it won't work, things you can do to make a society simply cease to function.

Systematically, the contras have been assassinating religious workers, teachers, health workers, elected officials, government administrators. You remember the assassination manual? that surfaced in 1984. It caused such a stir that President Reagan had to address it himself in the presidential debates with Walter Mondale. They use terror. This is a technique that they're using to traumatize the society so that it can't function.

I don't mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government and its agents are doing. They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.

This is nobody's propaganda. There have been over 100,000 American witnesses for peace who have gone down there and they have filmed and photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they've happened, and documented 13,000 people killed this way, mostly women and children. These are the activities done by these contras. The contras are the people president Reagan calls `freedom fighters'. He says they're the moral equivalent of our founding fathers. And the whole world gasps at this confession of his family traditions.


http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 02:24 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
such is the pitty....we should be talking about raising sexually healthy adults, and when this fails providing a mechanism for the twisted to get what they need from consensual relationships, and how best to find ways to support them doing this.


Who is this 'we' that you would have "providing a mechanism for the twisted to get what they need from consensual relationships, and how best to find ways to support them doing this"?

There is already a mechanism for that. It is to be found within adult consensual relationships.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 02:43 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
How we decide what abuse in someone's childhood was so horrendous that it in any way excuses or justifies the crimes they may now have committed? That is my issue with hawkeye
It does not excuse it, but the health system is the proper institution to deal with this, before they hurt someone. After they do then the justice system is, but if it gets this far then we have failed.


Look, do not include me in your we because I disagree with you. You want to lay the blame everywhere but at the feet of the person commiting the crime. The "abuse excuse" is just that AN EXCUXSE for bad behavior. If a person is wise enough to know that their abuser is wrong you'd think they'd be wise enough to know to not go and do the same thing, wouldn't you?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 02:46 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
You post as if there are NO safe places for victims. Where have you been? Ever googled how many homeless shelters, abuse shelters, halflway houses, support groups, etc., are out there?
I was clearly speaking of no place for victims to go to seek help where their lives will not be shredded. Anyplace they go will mandatory report to law enforcement, most of which are under mandatory laws to arrest, and then case then goes to DA'a who are under mandatory laws to prosecute.

Most people who are being abused by someone they care about do not want the abuser distroyed, in fact much of the time that gravely negatively impacts the victims life, but the choice the victims have now is report to anyone and see their life go bye-bye, or keep quiet. I think increasingly as people have become aware of this we have them choosing to be quiet. Eliminating the mandatory reporting would actual increase the usefulness of the saviour community organizations, because more people would be willing to use them.


Who said anything about destroying anyone? We are talking about taking responsibility for one's own actions. YOU are the one that keeps dragging revenge, hatred, and destroying in this. Yes, impacts their lives-ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE SET FREE TO DO IT AGAIN! I see, we all keep our mouths shut about the abusers SO THE ABUSERS ARE FREE TO DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.................do you even live in the USA?
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 02:55 pm
@hawkeye10,
Arella Mae Wrote:
Quote:
Suppose you come home one day and your whole family has been killed. The perpetrator is standing right there! He is finishing off one of your children! You catch him. You call the police. He is tried and you are in the courtroom.

He has drawn a very loving and forgiving Judge. During the trial, you find out he has done this crime before. Not only that, he has been in front of the same judge for that crime. This loving and forgiving judge believes the perpetrator is sorry and says "I am a kind and loving judge. I will set you free."

hawkeye, where is the justice for you? For your family? For society? We, as humans, must be held accountable for our actions. If we are not, then we can do whatever we want whenever we want. The laws are not made for the the ones that obey the law. It was made for those that don't so the ones that don't break the law can be protected. Our criminal justice system has many, many flaws I will agree but the type of society you are adovacting here would soon have all the law obeying people raped and killed by the lawless ones. You can't see that?


I notice you CHOOSE to NOT reply to this?
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 12:54 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
I notice you CHOOSE to NOT reply to this?
there have been a lot of posts, and I have written a lot of posts, some stuff I let go...for various reasons.

My wife was sexually tortured for 4 years by her brother, who eventually killed himself. My girls were sexually abused by our neighbor who was also our babysitters brother, and he got to three other girls in the neighborhood that I know of. I have experience with the current approach, and for a multitude of reasons I dont think it works very well. I dont think that bullying before and law and order after works very well. I would like to see us take a more holistic approach, one that recognizes that abusers are created, are suffering too, one that recognizes that we are a sexually twisted society so it should come as no surprise that individuals are twisted too. I advocate this new approach not because my goal is to be soft on abusers, but because I think it will go much further to lowering the population of abusers then what we do now does.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 02:55 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
do you even live in the USA?


Are you suggesting by this, AM, that the people of the USA possess a high level of morality?
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 03:05 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
I am the same and even asked for the proof. Of course, JTT did not provide it. The reason for my response in the manner it was. Same old song over and over from JTT. Getting real stale real quick.


I didn't provide it because I believed that you would backtrack as fast as your little legs could carry you, Intrepid. I didn't provide it because I thought that I had provided it, in this thread, to Arella Mae.


What you believe I would do is of little consequence and only adds to the fact that you are an idiot. As for the size of my legs, you have absolutely no knowledge of this and never will.

Nowhere did you reply that it had been posted to AM. What you provided to Arella Mae showed no proof at all of what you claim about rape.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 03:07 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
We are talking about crime and punishment here.
such is the pitty....we should be talking about raising sexually healthy adults, and when this fails providing a mechanism for the twisted to get what they need from consensual relationships, and how best to find ways to support them doing this.


That would be prostitutes where consent is give for recompense.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 03:09 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
Nowhere did you reply that it had been posted to AM.

What you provided to Arella Mae showed no proof at all of what you claim about rape.


Okay, let's not quibble over the little things. You now have the proof, Intrepid.

Do you need the question repeated?
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 03:24 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
do you even live in the USA?


Are you suggesting by this, AM, that the people of the USA possess a high level of morality?
Absolutely not, JTT. I was asking because he didn't seem to have a grasp on our justice system and quite frankly, his attitude towards women reminds me of some attitudes in the Middle East.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  4  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 05:11 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
Nowhere did you reply that it had been posted to AM.

What you provided to Arella Mae showed no proof at all of what you claim about rape.


Okay, let's not quibble over the little things. You now have the proof, Intrepid.

Do you need the question repeated?


Given that you have not provided ample evidence of your claim, there is no reason to provide an answer beyond what I answered previously.
ABE5177
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 05:34 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
My wife was sexually tortured for 4 years by her brother, who eventually killed himself.

he helped himself out of gun range I wish I had got the guilty man in my own family woman's early before she joined us sexual abuse and torture when she was a child under 14 but that's not in this worklsd or in t5his country even, I just kinda think the really cripppled by abuse should be sterilizec d

speciallly the drunks and the drug addi cts
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 05:38 pm
@Intrepid,
Intrepid wrote:

There is always a choice
A choice can always be changed by external interference. Perhaps I would have chosen to swim across a piranha filled river and die if a nearby man hadnt chosen to shout to me informing that there are piranhas in the river. If he had chosen to not tell me, could he then hold himself blameless for my death? I think not.

Arella Mae wrote:

You will be grown up when you realize no matter what happens in this life to you, the RESPONSIBILITY of how you handle it is YOURS and no one else's. There is EVIL in this world. Pure unadultered, sick, twisted, evil. Making mistakes in life and making some bad choices are one thing. EVIL is a dragon of a whole nother color.
Evil is a fabrication, a simplification, an instrument of confort that does not reflect reality. That is something I am sure you will eventually understand, but how long it will take is beyond me.

Arella Mae wrote:

Suppose you come home one day and your whole family has been killed. The perpetrator is standing right there! He is finishing off one of your children! You catch him. You call the police. He is tried and you are in the courtroom.
Oh, I would probaly kill the perpetrator there. Im not emotionally resistent enough to do something else in a situation like that. If per chance he escaped, I would eventually forgive him.

Arella Mae wrote:

You must live on the same planet as hawkeye. What do you mean people do not have a choice between good and evil? If someone asks you to help them murder someone you don't have a choice? You aren't (fill in whatever word fits here) to say, um, no, murder is WRONG and I'm not going to do it? You don't have the ability to say robbing a bank is wrong? Telling a lie is wrong?
If I say "no" and do nothing to stop them from murdering, can I hold myself blameless for that murder afteryards? I think not.

Arella Mae wrote:

Who said anything about destroying anyone? We are talking about taking responsibility for one's own actions. YOU are the one that keeps dragging revenge, hatred, and destroying in this. Yes, impacts their lives-ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE SET FREE TO DO IT AGAIN! I see, we all keep our mouths shut about the abusers SO THE ABUSERS ARE FREE TO DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.................do you even live in the USA?
Funny that you say he is the one who keeps dragging hatred into this, because its you, actually. I suppose the way you have been writting lately is enough evidence.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 06:16 pm
@Intrepid,
You're as bad as Gungasnake, Intrepid.

Quote:


THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:

part II

CIA COVERT OPERATIONS IN CENTRAL AMERICA, CIA MANIPULATION OF THE PRESS, CIA EXPERIMENTATION ON THE U.S. PUBLIC

by John Stockwell

By the way, everything I'm sharing with you tonight is in the public record.
...

To destabilize Nicaragua beginning in 1981, we began funding this force of Somoza's ex-national guardsmen, calling them the contras (the counter-revolutionaries). We created this force, it did not exist until we allocated money.

We've armed them, put uniforms on their backs, boots on their feet, given them camps in Honduras to live in, medical supplies, doctors, training, leadership, direction, as we've sent them in to de-stabilize Nicaragua. Under our direction they have systematically been blowing up graineries, saw mills, bridges, government offices, schools, health centers. They ambush trucks so the produce can't get to market. They raid farms and villages. The farmer has to carry a gun while he tries to plow, if he can plow at all.

If you want one example of hard proof of the CIA's involvement in this, and their approach to it, dig up `The Sabotage Manual', that they were circulating throughout Nicaragua, a comic-book type of a paper, with visual explanations of what you can do to bring a society to a halt, how you can gum up typewriters, what you can pour in a gas tank to burn up engines, what you can stuff in a sewage to stop up the sewage so it won't work, things you can do to make a society simply cease to function.

Systematically, the contras have been assassinating religious workers, teachers, health workers, elected officials, government administrators. You remember the assassination manual? that surfaced in 1984. It caused such a stir that President Reagan had to address it himself in the presidential debates with Walter Mondale. They use terror. This is a technique that they're using to traumatize the society so that it can't function.

I don't mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government and its agents are doing. They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.


This is nobody's propaganda. There have been over 100,000 American witnesses for peace who have gone down there and they have filmed and photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they've happened, and documented 13,000 people killed this way, mostly women and children. These are the activities done by these contras. The contras are the people president Reagan calls `freedom fighters'. He says they're the moral equivalent of our founding fathers. And the whole world gasps at this confession of his family traditions.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html





 

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