The Crusades

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The Crusades
I did a review in the Books section of By Thomas F. Madden "Crusades" but also want to add additional information here.
Some interesting points:

1) It's started with a speech of Urban ll, in France, his homeland in 1095 at the council of Clermont, to go and help Eastern church against Arabs and Turks
2) The call was enforced by using the Bible with versus like "Pick up your cross and follow me", and "deny yourself" and they sew a cross on their garments to show their commitment to follow God's will.
3) People accepted and wanted to the "voyage" or "pilgrimage" immediately. The pilgrimage considered to be complete by stepping on the Holy Land. It's only later in 13 century people to start calling Crusades, before that it was a pilgrimage.
3) Anyone who wanted to go will take a vow, canceling the vow would means to get excommunicated from the Church.
5) It was understood that crusades expressed their love to God by "literally" following God.

6) The voyage starts with taking pilgrims' vow. This was taken in public, before the bishop or a priest, and it marked the formal beginning of the pilgrimage. Upon return, it would be the same bishop or priest who declared the vow fulfilled, marking the person's return to normal life.
After vow the pilgrimage had begun. Most people set out in the very same hour. The priest blessed a pilgrim, who made his vow, listing specifically which shrines he intended to visit. This was the specific contract of the pilgrimage--it was a promise to go to particular places. The blessing would be followed by a sermon and a mass. Departing a pilgrim would join another group since people almost never travelled alone. Sometimes, a great many people set out together, and the blessing ceremony became an event conducted for the whole group. The public nature of the ceremony ensured that the pilgrim himself knew that the pilgrimage had begun, and that the rest of the community knew it as well.
source:Virtual Pilgrimage - start in France

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@marcus cv,

The idea that someone thinks that god gave them a right to own a piece of land is despicable in my view.

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@marcus cv,

If the Constitution said the same would it be just as dispicable?

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@Drnaline,

Drnaline;59815 wrote:

If the Constitution said the same would it be just as dispicable?

yes.

Manifest destiny is what I suppose you are referring to, correct? Except it was never mentioned anywhere in the constitution.... It was a corrupt doctrine used to justify the most horrific acts under American rule.

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@Fatal Freedoms,

Quote:

The idea that someone thinks that god gave them a right to own a piece of land is despicable in my view.

It starting with a book of Genesis (12, 15, 17) where God promises Abraham to give him the land of Canaan. But the promise of that land is not standing alone promise. It has three parts in it, the land, the offspring which is Jesus Christ, and the blessing to all nations.
Unfortunately the other two parts are often forgoten and the focus is on the real estate itself. In ancient times the land of Canaan was not as valuable as the land of Egypt because of the irrigation system. The land of Canaan is depended on rains, where Egypt was bringing good crops because of Nile river. Therefore a contrast of dependence on God and natural ways of doing things.
All Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph believed that one day it will be fulfillment of the promise of the Land, Offspring, and Blessings in the land and where buried in the land. (Jacob and Joseph requested after their death to be buried in the land of Canaan and not in Egypt (Gen 49,50) )

How's it related to the Crusades? Crusaders fought for the land that ironically has no value (but hope) to Christianity or Judaism unless all promises are fulfilled, and they have not been fulfilled yet. There is one promise has been fulfilled God's bringing his nation to the land. It has been fulfilled after 1900 years of Israel nonexistence, and after 2700 yeas when the promise was given (Isaiah 43:5).

Crusaders where doing "God's work" that only God can do at His appointed time. That promise of the New Kingdom it's not conditioned on men actions at all. It's all done by might and power of Messiah (Zech 9, Rev 4).

Quote:

The idea that someone thinks that god gave them a right to own a piece of land is despicable in my view.

I agree with you, it's not about a right for the land, but it's about fulfillment of all promises. But it's easier to focus on tangible than intangible such as faith.

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@marcus cv,

Whenever someone mentions the "crusades", I like to ask "Which ones? The Christian or the Muslim Crusades?"

The Muslim Crusades preceded the Christian ones by several centuries and the Christian crusades were at least in part a response to the earlier crusades of the Muslims.

If one has questions about the above, all one has to do is study the history of the Moors in Spain as well as the history of the Christian slave trade along the North African Mediterranean

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@Musky Hunter,

Musky Hunter;61045 wrote:

Whenever someone mentions the "crusades", I like to ask "Which ones? The Christian or the Muslim Crusades?"

The Muslim Crusades preceded the Christian ones by several centuries and the Christian crusades were at least in part a response to the earlier crusades of the Muslims.

If one has questions about the above, all one has to do is study the history of the Moors in Spain as well as the history of the Christian slave trade along the North African Mediterranean

Do you suggest the two are comparable?!

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@Fatal Freedoms,

Fatal_Freedoms;61108 wrote:

Do you suggest the two are comparable?!

Do you suggest that it is not?

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@Musky Hunter,

Musky Hunter;61179 wrote:

Do you suggest that it is not?

yes.

There were at least 9 crusades! How many times did the moors invade spain? Also the scale of the crusades were much greater than the moorish conquest of southern spain.

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@Fatal Freedoms,

Fatal_Freedoms;61184 wrote:

yes.

There were at least 9 crusades! How many times did the moors invade spain? Also the scale of the crusades were much greater than the moorish conquest of southern spain.

How long did the Moors remain in conquest of Spain vs. the length of time of any conquest of the Mid-east by the Christians?

How much of Coastal Africa was also conquered, as well as Spain?

How many Muslim people were sold into slavery by the Christian invaders vs. the amount of Christians sold into slavery by Muslim traders?

Please understand. I am in no way defending the actions of the crusaders. I am pointing out what I see as the fact that their wrongs are loudly and oft pointed out while the wrongs of others are generally not. As such, I am just desiring what I see as appropriate context.

There is enough blame to go around. Neither side is that innocent and neither side is that much more guilty than the other that its atrocities should be pointed out to the exclusion of the others.

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@Musky Hunter,

Musky Hunter;61196 wrote:

How long did the Moors remain in conquest of Spain vs. the length of time of any conquest of the Mid-east by the Christians?

While the moors remained in southern spain for a long time the actual conquest itself was not as long as that of the crusades.

Quote:

How much of Coastal Africa was also conquered, as well as Spain?

correct me if i'm wrong but i don't believe north africa had any significant amount of christians in it at that time.

Quote:

How many Muslim people were sold into slavery by the Christian invaders vs. the amount of Christians sold into slavery by Muslim traders?

that i do not know.

Quote:

There is enough blame to go around. Neither side is that innocent

agreed

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@Fatal Freedoms,

Fatal_Freedoms;61222 wrote:

While the moors remained in southern spain for a long time the actual conquest itself was not as long as that of the crusades.

correct me if i'm wrong but i don't believe north africa had any significant amount of christians in it at that time.

that i do not know.

agreed

I would argue that the time of occupation was part of the time of conquest.

I would also argue that whether coastal Africa was Christian or simply non-Muslim that the conquest of that area was still part of the "crusade" to spread the Muslim faith.

And finally, it is nice to agree on something from time to time :thumbup:

1 Reply

@Musky Hunter,

Musky Hunter;61229 wrote:

I would argue that the time of occupation was part of the time of conquest.

then America has had one hell of a long conquest of Indian land, huh?

Quote:

I would also argue that whether coastal Africa was Christian or simply non-Muslim that the conquest of that area was still part of the "crusade" to spread the Muslim faith.

the pendulum swings both ways

1 Reply

@Fatal Freedoms,

Fatal_Freedoms;61261 wrote:

then America has had one hell of a long conquest of Indian land, huh?

There are a fair amount of Native Americans who would agree with that point.

1 Reply

@Musky Hunter,

Musky Hunter;61264 wrote:

There are a fair amount of Native Americans who would agree with that point.

probably but..

living on conquered land doesn't = conquering

1 Reply

@Fatal Freedoms,

Fatal_Freedoms;61268 wrote:

probably but..

living on conquered land doesn't = conquering

True. In that respect the Native Americans have had it much better than the Christians of Spain.

1 Reply

@Musky Hunter,

Musky Hunter;61270 wrote:

True. In that respect the Native Americans have had it much better than the Christians of Spain.

i would agree with that. How Americans treated native Indians pales in comparison to what went on in medieval Europe.

1 Reply

@Fatal Freedoms,

Fatal_Freedoms;61272 wrote:

i would agree with that. How Americans treated native Indians pales in comparison to what went on in medieval Europe.

We agree :spot:

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@Musky Hunter,

Musky Hunter;61045 wrote:

Whenever someone mentions the "crusades", I like to ask "Which ones? The Christian or the Muslim Crusades?"

Education time!

Crusade. Literal translation: War of the Cross.

What's the Muslim religious symbol?

1 Reply

@Sabz5150,

Sabz5150;61852 wrote:

Education time!

Crusade. Literal translation: War of the Cross.

What's the Muslim religious symbol?

semantics.

0 Replies

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