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THE US, UN AND IRAQ V

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 06:04 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
PDiddie,
I agree with everything you just said. I hope with all of my heart that North Korea will be next. No, I don't like War. Yes, I think if necessary to free those people from the oppression of Kim Jong Il, it is justified.

Does this mean the liklihgood of massive death in South Korea, Japan, China, etc.. is also justified? I have few doubts Kim will take out most of Asia with him. What about waitng him out until he dies or is removed from power? Are the millions of deaths that would likely be prevented by such measures less valuable than the death toll that would likely result in invasion? Are we beter off causing deaths than preventing them? Should we participate in the deaths of millions to prevent the deaths of thousands?
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 06:12 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
I think there was the clear implication that by doing so lives were saved...

I do, though I disagree with the veracity of the "saving lives" argument.


I do as well.

I am drawing a visual of Jack Nicholson's character, Col. Jessup, in A Few Good Men:

"You don't know about what it's like, standing on that wall, defending freedom. You don't want to know what I do when I'm on that wall..."

"What I do saves lives, Captain..."

Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 06:17 pm
Well in case it's not clear, I think that sometimes the "saves lives" argument is valid. I just don't think it is here.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 06:17 pm
"You don't want the truth. You can't handle the truth."
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 06:23 pm
hobitbob wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
PDiddie,
I agree with everything you just said. I hope with all of my heart that North Korea will be next. No, I don't like War. Yes, I think if necessary to free those people from the oppression of Kim Jong Il, it is justified.

Does this mean the liklihgood of massive death in South Korea, Japan, China, etc.. is also justified? I have few doubts Kim will take out most of Asia with him. What about waitng him out until he dies or is removed from power? Are the millions of deaths that would likely be prevented by such measures less valuable than the death toll that would likely result in invasion? Are we beter off causing deaths than preventing them? Should we participate in the deaths of millions to prevent the deaths of thousands?

Kim has already killed millions, not thousands, and continues to do so to this day. No, I don't think trading S Korea's destruction...etc. is justified. I don't believe that is necessarily an either or situation. I do believe; the longer we wait; the closer to a nuclear superpower he becomes. His ability to kill goes up everyday we let his proliferation continue. Clinton had plans to strike yongbyon to prevent this, but chose not to. I believe the sooner we address this; the more lives will be saved. If you truly believe I like seeing people die, than you haven't been listening. Our difference in opinion on how best to prevent the greater evil is simply that. Your assertions to the contrary are argumentative for the sake of argument... Unless you believe yourself more qualified to define my beliefs than I am. And please, stop misquoting me.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 06:24 pm
Just wondering where this would fit into the discussion ....


Quote:
"if the substantial reduction in child mortality throughout Iraq during the 1980s had continued through the 1990s, there would have been half a million fewer deaths of children under-five in the country as a whole during the eight year period 1991 to 1998" UNICEF, 12 August 1999.



http://www.casi.org.uk/
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 06:30 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:

Kim has already killed millions, not thousands, and continues to do so to this day. No, I don't think trading S Korea's destruction...etc. is justified.

But it is waht you advocated above.

Quote:
I don't believe that is necessarily an either or situation. I do believe; the longer we wait; the closer to a nuclear superpower he becomes.

So what, Pakistan and India, as well as ISrael haev nukes? Why should Kim not have them? I don't like the idea, but it seems we are unlikely to stop this.


Quote:
His ability to kill goes up everyday we let his proliferation continue. Clinton had plans to strike yongbyon to prevent this, but chose not to. I believe the sooner we address this; the more lives will be saved.

By making Asia a radioactive wasteland?


Quote:
Our difference in opinion on how best to prevent the greater evil is simply that.

Of course.

Quote:
Your assertions to the contrary are argumentative for the sake of argument... Unless you believe yourself more qualified to define my beliefs than I am.

Disagreeing with you is not argument for the sake of argument.

Quote:
And please, stop misquoting me.

How can I misquote you when I quote your own words?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 06:45 pm
Bill, Your assumption that North Korea is a threat to the US is unsubstantiated. If you're talking about the intelligence work in Iraq before Bush decided a preemptive strike on that country, your trust of our intelligence or this administraiton's use of intelligence is just as frightening as the threat that North Korea posses. But that's just my personal opinion.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 06:46 pm
Bill, Exactly what does North Korea gain by bombing South Korea or Japan?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 07:00 pm
I would take issue with Craven on the point of whether or not Saddam would have been able to continue his quest for weapons of mass destruction, but my quibble is only a temporal one. I think it would have taken many, many years of his under-the-table dealings with Syria and Jordan for him to have gotten the main necessary components of such weapons. Chemical weapons actually might have eventually proven easy to create. Biological weapons, i think less so. Nuclear weapons might have been beyond his reach, because of the obvious difficulties of obtaining sufficient fissionable material without anyone hostile knowing it. I agree with Craven that a lifting of sanctions would not have done us any harm. It might, arguably, have allowed him to have accelerated the attempt to acquire component materials of weapons of mass destruction. I don't buy the argument that the sanctions only hurt the Iraqi people without helping the situation though--not because i don't recognize how the Iraqui people suffered, but because i believe that they would not have been better off without sanctions. The folks in the Sunni dominated regions of Iraq were getting at least a sufficiency, while Shi'ites were left to starve, or fight for the leavings. I would opine that a good deal of the support for an "Iraqi resistance" comes from the Sunni minority in the tribal regions, because they have indeed lost with the overthrow of Hussein. Those with the most to lose from a lifting of sanctions might have been the Kurds, because i doubt that Hussein would ever have given up trying to crush them--and the Turks would have helped in this effort to the extent that they continue to attempt to crush any Kurdish independence movement in their own territory. I'm not charging the Turks with having been in cahoots, simply that their policy coincidentally matched Hussein's.

All of which leads me to suggest that Bush was justified up to the point of putting pressure on Iraq to comply with Security Council Resolutions 686, and particularly with Resolution 687, paragraph 10 of which reads:

In Resolution 687, the Security Council wrote:
Decides further that Iraq shall unconditionally undertake not to use, develop, construct or acquire any of the items specified in paragraphs 8 and 9 [i.e., referrring to chemical, biological and nuclear weapons], and request the Secretary-General, in consultation with the Special Commission, to develop a plan for the future ongoing monitoring and verification of Iraq's compliance with the present paragraph, to be submitted to the Coucil for approval within one hundred and twenty days of the passage of the present resolution;


but that Resolution 1440 was unnecessary. This was, in my view, a transparent attempt to get authority for immediate military action, and sufficiently transparent that the Security Council was not suckered by it. Had the administration continued the pressure on Hussein with the authority of the earlier resolutions, leaving aside 1440, there is every reason to suggest that it might have been possible to eventually, and likely sooner than later, close all of the rat holes through which he smuggled out his oil, and smuggled in dollars. I think the administration was not, however, operating in good faith from the beginning, and intended war from the outset, which is despicable and worthy of condemnation. The war was not necessary to draw Hussein's sting; contentions of Iraq being a likely sources of weapons of mass destruction for terrorist seem to me absurd. No Wahabbi was ever welcome in Iraq during Hussein's tenure, and i therefore doubt that any Al Quaeda operative would have been welcome. Now that he's gone, it is very possible (i couldn't estimate how likely, though) that Al Quaeda operatives would be in Iraq in the hope of killing Americans. Even without the traditional animus between the secular Iraqi state of Hussein and the radical religious terrorists, a continued pressure under the simple provision of paragraph 10 of Resolution 687 would have proven sufficient, in my opinion, to assure that Hussein didn't share his toys with others. That is why i stated my opposition to the war from the outset.

As for North Korea, that tragedy has festered for a long time, and is likely to continue to do so. I find it noteworthy that in a series of NPR news analysis pieces i've heard, the North Koreans interviewed in China and South Korea, where they had fled to escape the starvation, emphatically stated that they had previously had no information that food aid and petroleum were being provided to Pyongyang. This is a very tense situation, and needs to be handled carefully--so i despair of this administration's ability to handle the situation intelligently. The aid granted to Pyongyang in the Clinton administration was not a bad idea, but perhaps more than a little naive--Clinton's administration deserves no credit in this one, they seem to have been just as clueless about Kim Jong Il and his motives and methods as is the Bush administration today. Any food aid and petroleum we provide will simply be used to assure that the army is fed, and maintains the highest mobility its resources will allow. The analyses i have read and heard broadcast suggest that Kim has two, perhaps as many as four, nuclear war heads. I don't think North Korea can spread the devastation which HB seems to suggest, but i agree with him completely that "Joe Ching" (the name G.I.'s give to the North Koreans) would spead as much destruction as they were capable of in the event of war. It is significant that North Korea has been for a generation or more, one of the world's busiest sellers of short- and medium-range ballistic missles (with Brazil and China), and simply with conventional warheads, they could easily drag China and Japan into such a conflict, while raining indiscriminate death upon the the South. I only disagree with HB as to the degree of the holocaust, he is right on target that such a move would result in disaster for the western Pacific rim. With the current administration, the contemplation of the Korean situation makes me very nervous indeed.
0 Replies
 
gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 07:01 pm
Quote:
Kim has already killed millions, not thousands, and continues to do so to this day. No, I don't think trading S Korea's destruction...etc. is justified. I don't believe that is necessarily an either or situation. I do believe; the longer we wait; the closer to a nuclear superpower he becomes. His ability to kill goes up everyday we let his proliferation continue. Clinton had plans to strike yongbyon to prevent this, but chose not to. I believe the sooner we address this; the more lives will be saved. If you truly believe I like seeing people die, than you haven't been listening. Our difference in opinion on how best to prevent the greater evil is simply that. Your assertions to the contrary are argumentative for the sake of argument... Unless you believe yourself more qualified to define my beliefs than I am. And please, stop misquoting me.


Bill,

I'd never suggest you like seeing people die but it seems you are less concerned when death is the result of US aggression. Attacking North Korea will endanger the lives of millions but you willingly risk that. Stop using the dishonest "he" and "his" and begin thinking in terms of the men, woman and children of North Korea because they are who you would wage war against. THEM not HE.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 07:04 pm
today's reading
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16833
exam on tuesday
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 07:06 pm
Bill, How many innocent men, women and children are you willing to kill to kill Kim?
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 07:08 pm
blatham wrote:
today's reading
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16833
exam on tuesday

Vidal is high on the lisit of people I would sactifice a limb to have lunch with, even though I know fll well he would insult me the entire time!
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 07:11 pm
Quote:
Stop using the dishonest "he" and "his" and begin thinking in terms of the men, woman and children of North Korea because they are who you would wage war against. THEM not HE.

An equaly important thing to remember in the "war against Saddam," and the "hunt for bin-Laden."
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 07:17 pm
My god! The man trudged over Lincoln's grave with muddy shoes. Hard to argue his points, but "where's the evidence?"
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 07:49 pm
Quote:
I will concede the fact of the decline in recent years, but I attribute it to the amount of pressure applied to Iraq.
My meaning in this statement is being misunderstood. Yes, I saw the obvious improvement. No, I didn't think it constituted success. Further I believed it a temporary Band-Aid, not an indication of any change of thinking, or desire on Saddam's part. To pretend we believed his dog and pony show, and not lighten up on our sanctions would be hypocritical. On the other hand; if we admit he didn't fulfill his obligations according to agreements, then the road to war is justly paved. You can not have it both ways.

hobitbob wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:

Kim has already killed millions, not thousands, and continues to do so to this day. No, I don't think trading S Korea's destruction...etc. is justified.

But it is waht you advocated above.
Quote:
I don't believe that is necessarily an either or situation. I do believe; the longer we wait; the closer to a nuclear superpower he becomes.
Do you not see where this second quote cancels out your claim in between the two. This; is an example of arguing for the sake of argument.

hobitbob wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Quote:
Your assertions to the contrary are argumentative for the sake of argument... Unless you believe yourself more qualified to define my beliefs than I am.

Disagreeing with you is not argument for the sake of argument.

Here you've deliberately cut a portion of a point into pieces in order to mount arguments for the sake of argument against my assertion that you do argue for the sake of argument. LOL The point can only be understood by addressing it as a whole. Here it is as a whole:
Quote:
If you truly believe I like seeing people die, than you haven't been listening. Our difference in opinion on how best to prevent the greater evil is simply that. Your assertions to the contrary are argumentative for the sake of argument... Unless you believe yourself more qualified to define my beliefs than I am.
As you can see, when you address the point, rather than fragmenting for the sake of argument, the meaning of the words become clear.

hobitbob wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Quote:
And please, stop misquoting me.
How can I misquote you when I quote your own words?

hobitbob wrote:
"I've never killed anyone, but when I do, I hope I will be able to do it efficiently,"

These are not my own words. Never were. Not only do you fragment for the sake of argument, you don't even accurately quote me. I have never said anything that could reasonably be construed to mean this, let alone said it. I challenge you to produce an accurate quote that even reflects such a meaning.

I have tried as hard as I could to debate with you in a civil fashion. Your continued strategic paragraph chopping, point obscuring, misquoting fashion of arguing for the sake of argument bores me. I lack your skills in formatting posts and am somewhat exhausted from putting this one together. I would prefer to debate the merits of my positions with parties interested in doing so. Until such a time as you choose to adapt a different style of arguing your points, I will likely not respond to you again. I mean no offense, Bob, and I'm not trying to tell you what to do. I just don't enjoy doing it your way.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 07:49 pm
A suggestion
"I hope with all of my heart that North Korea will be next. No, I don't like War."

I suggest that you sign up with a military training outfit and then hire yourself out as a mercanary so you can get some action. In six months you could prolly get a job with the Rummy para-military outfit and ship out to Afghanistan and fight the Taliban. Hope you get to kill a few people so you can feel good about yourself.

Re: a direct confrontation with N. Korea. Anyone that urges that is plain out a freakin' nut case in my not so humble opine.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 07:52 pm
That was what I was hoping we could avoid! Remember the reporting feature?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 08:12 pm
Setanta wrote:
I would take issue with Craven on the point of whether or not Saddam would have been able to continue his quest for weapons of mass destruction, but my quibble is only a temporal one. I think it would have taken many, many years of his under-the-table dealings with Syria and Jordan for him to have gotten the main necessary components of such weapons.


You'd have to take issue with someone else. Because I agree. Smile

Quote:
I agree with Craven that a lifting of sanctions would not have done us any harm.


But I didn't say that. I prefer sanctions to the war.
0 Replies
 
 

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