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THE US, UN AND IRAQ V

 
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 09:49 am
blatham wrote:
razorless bill

Cute play on my name, I laughed out loud. I believe the majority of creatures on this planet possess an instinct for self preservation. NOT just Arabs. I've never heard Rumsfeld say that. I'm not even a republican. I'm a Wisconsin boy: Sometimes while partaking in pseudo intellectual conversations I digress back to my shallow upbringing. Will you concede that those of us who believe in fighting fire with fire; do not necessarily do so out of ignorance. The only fights I've ever picked were with bullies. And, if you read more of my posts you'll know my position on oppressing women. Confused
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 09:50 am
Interesting pet peeve you have there. LOL
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 10:07 am
bill

Pet peeves I have in rich abundance.

But actually, I just wanted to point out that this notion is is repeated far more often than it is reflected upon. And, I think it most interesting that it would be a notion held by men more often than women, and by a nation's soldiery more often than by its artists.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 10:18 am
Artists fartists . . . just a buncha pansies . . . where's my pump shot gun ?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 10:32 am
Now Set, I do believe you are being deliberately provocative...so no change there then Laughing
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 11:12 am
I'd note that Isreal's frequent shows of force have done little to invoke a sense of self-preservation among Palestinians.

Frankly, if people are fighting against America I think they already understand the discrepancy of power and the strong possibility of self-preservation being a problem.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 11:13 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Now Set, I do believe you are being deliberately provocative...so no change there then Laughing



heeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee . . .


okbye
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 11:25 am
The Iraqi publics different impressions about Saddam's capture reveals the difference of opinion about this war in Iraq. Both supporters and non-supporters of Saddam opine that his was the coward way out, while others say Saddam is still their esteemed leader. On the same vane, supporters and non-supporters of this war argue the justification and non-justification for this war. Just goes to show how complex issues of thiis kind can be, and I doubt most minds will be changed by the revelation of more information.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 01:25 pm
blatham wrote:

...This is a commonplace idea, repeated in coffee shops and from everyone at the White House..."they only respect force" being the notion. ....

It's a curious assumption and one wonders how the truth of it might be empirically established. Whenever I bump into it, I have some trouble not immediately thinking of a fellow in a muscle shirt discussing how one's wife ought to be managed. Please understand I'm not alluding to you in any personal way here, you are a thoughtful guy. I am though, suggesting that it's equally possible that when Don Rumsfeld makes this claim, we aren't learning far more about him than about Arabs.


It is an interesting question. I believe the truth is that such notions as "they only respect force" are a gross oversimplification and both false and misleading.

However force or the possibility of forceful action is indeed a necessary ingredient in sustained successful influence or in the exercise of power. Machiavelli noted this in his advice to his prince concerning the necessity of being respected and the desirability of being loved. Sun Tsu was even more incisive in his several illustrations of the necessity of occasional cold-hearted application of raw power and the relatively greater suffering that will result if the leader waivers.

The recent furor over the timing of the Administration's announcement that non-coalition countries may not participate in reconstruction contracts in Iraq may be a case in point. Many criticized the supposed ineptitude of the Administration in doing this just as Jim Baker was sent off to negotiate Iraqi debt reduction agreements with France and Germany. Now we see that France and Germany have readily agreed to the desired debt reductions. Did they do this in spite of the earlier announcement, or because of it? Was the Administration's action in this matter stupid and careless, or astute and deliberate? We cannot know with assurance what are the answers to these questions, however it is clear that the announcement did not deter the desired debt reductions and it is highly unlikely that the administration was unaware of the juxtaposition of the two events. The best guess is the Administration's actions were deliberate, and that the results were, if not beneficial, at least not harmful.

It may also be instructive to contemplate the reactions of Kim Jong Il to the events in Iraq. It is noteworthy that he is now participating in regional talks with his neighbors concerning his nuclear weapons and political relations - things which earlier he flatly refused to consider.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 02:33 pm
"the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."
----------

Samuel P. Huntington
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 02:45 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
The Iraqi publics different impressions about Saddam's capture reveals the difference of opinion about this war in Iraq. Both supporters and non-supporters of Saddam opine that his was the coward way out, while others say Saddam is still their esteemed leader. On the same vane, supporters and non-supporters of this war argue the justification and non-justification for this war. Just goes to show how complex issues of thiis kind can be, and I doubt most minds will be changed by the revelation of more information.


Given the Bush administration's track record with the truth how can we be sure of the circumstances involved in the 'aquisition' of Saddam? From his appearance he might just as well have been a prisoner in that hole.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 02:48 pm
Quote:
"the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."



Gel, Westerners fought for and defend freedom, without freedom you can never reach superiority. The way I see it, the ideas and values of freedom have made the west superior.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 02:57 pm
Brand X wrote:
Quote:
"the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."



Gel, Westerners fought for and defend freedom, without freedom you can never reach superiority. The way I see it, the ideas and values of freedom have made the west superior.


You're both right. Pity the fool who challenges our Military or our Economic philosophy.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 03:00 pm
Brand X wrote:
Quote:
"the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."



Gel, Westerners fought for and defend freedom, without freedom you can never reach superiority. The way I see it, the ideas and values of freedom have made the west superior.


All well and true brand, but that was before Bush.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 03:04 pm
Consider this...

Quote:
12-14-2003
Indications Saddam Was Not in Hiding But a Captive
-- IraqiNews.com

A number of questions are raised by the incredibly bedraggled, tired and crushed condition of this once savage, dapper and pampered ruler who was discovered in a hole in the ground on Saturday, December 13:

1. The length and state of his hair indicated he had not seen a barber or even had a shampoo for several weeks.

2. The wild state of his beard indicated he had not shaved for the same period

3. The hole dug in the floor of a cellar in a farm compound near Tikrit was primitive indeed - 6ft across and 8ft across with minimal sanitary arrangements - a far cry from his opulent palaces.

4. Saddam looked beaten and hungry.

5. Detained with him were two unidentified men, two AK-47 assault guns and a pistol, none of which were used.

6. The hole had only one opening. It was not only camouflaged with mud and bricks - it was blocked. He could not have climbed out without someone on the outside removing the covering.

7. And most important, $750,000 in 100-dollar notes were found with him - but no communications equipment of any kind, whether cell phone or even a carrier pigeon for contacting the outside world.

According to analysts, these seven anomalies point to one conclusion: Saddam Hussein was not in hiding; he was a prisoner.

After his last audiotaped message was delivered and aired over al Arabiya TV on Sunday November 16, on the occasion of Ramadan, Saddam was seized, possibly with the connivance of his own men, and held in that hole in Adwar for three weeks or more, which would have accounted for his appearance and condition. Meanwhile, his captors bargained for the $25 m prize the Americans promised for information leading to his capture alive or dead. The negotiations were mediated by Jalal Talabani's Kurdish PUK militia.

These circumstances would explain the ex-ruler's docility - described by Lt.Gen. Ricardo Sanchez as "resignation" - in the face of his capture by US forces. He must have regarded them as his rescuers and would have greeted them with relief.

From Gen. Sanchez's evasive answers to questions on the $25m bounty, it may be inferred that the Americans and Kurds took advantage of the negotiations with Saddam's abductors to move in close and capture him on their own account, for three reasons:

A. His capture had become a matter of national pride for the Americans. No kudos would have been attached to his handover by a local gang of bounty-seekers or criminals. The country would have been swept anew with rumors that the big hero Saddam was again betrayed by the people he trusted, just as in the war.

B. It was vital to catch his kidnappers unawares so as to make sure Saddam was taken alive. They might well have killed him and demanded the prize for his body. But they made sure he had no means of taking his own life and may have kept him sedated.

C. During the weeks he is presumed to have been in captivity, guerrilla activity declined markedly - especially in the Sunni Triangle towns of Falluja, Ramadi and Balad - while surging outside this flashpoint region - in Mosul in the north and Najef, Nasseriya and Hilla in the south. It was important for the coalition to lay hands on him before the epicenter of the violence turned back towards Baghdad and the center of the Sunni Triangle.

The next thing to watch now is not just where and when Saddam is brought to justice for countless crimes against his people and humanity - Sanchez said his interrogation will take "as long as it takes - but what happens to the insurgency. Will it escalate or gradually die down?

An answer to this, according to counter-terror sources, was received in Washington nine days before Saddam reached US custody.

It came in the form of a disturbing piece of intelligence that the notorious Lebanese terrorist and hostage-taker Imad Mughniyeh, who figures on the most wanted list of 22 men published by the FBI after 9/11, had arrived in southern Iraq and was organizing a new anti-US terror campaign to be launched in March-April 2004, marking the first year of the American invasion.

For the past 21 years, Mughniyeh has waged a war of terror against Americans, whether on behalf of the Hizballah, the Iranian Shiite fundamentalists, al Qaeda or for himself. The Lebanese arch-terrorist represents for the anti-American forces in Iraq an ultimate weapon.

Saddam's capture will not turn this offensive aside; it may even bring it forward.


Source
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 03:13 pm
Well. That's the neatest load of manure I have ever seen. All nice and tidy, but it still stinks.

I believe 100% that He was captured last Sunday.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 03:20 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Well. That's the neatest load of manure I have ever seen. All nice and tidy, but it still stinks.

I believe 100% that He was captured last Sunday.


I said consider, not believe ..... to consider it you have to be able to look past the end of your nose.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 03:28 pm
I gave it very careful scrutiny and consideration. Then posted my reply.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 03:40 pm
Care to explain why you think it stinks? Have you a reason, or are you unwilling to consider anything that conflicts with your worldview?
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 03:47 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I gave it very careful scrutiny and consideration. Then posted my reply.


Did you consider that he had access, according the official report, to soap, water and clean clothes but chose not to use them? Who were the two men found wth him an what happened to them? The statement was made that he appeared drugged but no drugs were mentioned as being found.

Bush loves to 'stage' things so I wonder???

Don't get me wrong, the man was or is of a subhuman species and deserves to be drawn and quarterd ....... does Bush deserve to be re-elected on the bones of those that Saddam murdered?
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