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THE US, UN AND IRAQ V

 
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 04:23 pm
We have the death penalty in the United States, and by golly, lots of people move here every year.
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Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 04:29 pm
He wouldn't have to move, the most populous nations bigger than no.3 (the USA) are China and India*. Indonesia (no.4) also has the death penalty. Australia has not executed anyone since the 1960s.





*also the world's largest democracy
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 04:40 pm
Mr Still, I thought Indonesia was number 5. Wink
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 04:52 pm
Many of you are a making an error in believing the Iraq issue to be strictly a partisan one. I personally thought Saddam should have been disposed of to conclude the first Gulf War. When he threw out the UN inspectors; that was a cease-fire violation, and should have resulted in an attack. By default in his system, 50% of the population suffered horrible oppression (the women), and his other crimes against humanity are countless. This opinion has nothing to do with whether or not I am a republican (I'm not). I am considering voting for General Wesley Clark. A matter as important as going to war always has more than 2 sides. Both parties are wrong when making assumptions that you are either with them or against them. I address issues individually and it so happens I would welcome any policing of any country that routinely commits "crimes against humanity" on 50% of their population. Bush's actions this far; is helping to satisfy this desire of mine so I support them. How can anyone argue that if he hadn't acted, Saddam wouldn't still be in power? This defies reason. Saddam was a monster who will soon get his just reward. I can't understand opposing the removal of a monster who perpetrated so many crimes against humanity. Even if you oppose the technique, don't you still need to appreciate the result? In an effort to avoid being blindsided with philosophical ramifications of the techniques used; I'll clarify that to mean don't you have to be happy that Saddam is done committing those crimes? At any rate, I hope you all can appreciate my point; that supporting this action is not synonymous with supporting Bush, the Republicans or any other party.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 04:53 pm
Completely not the point, roger.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 04:54 pm
Hint: Iraq had the death penalty.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 04:57 pm
So you would support going to war against both Koreas, Turkey, China, Pakistan, India, Russia, Uzbekistan, Azerbaidjain, Georgia, Chechnya, S. Africa, Kenya, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Morrocco, Algeria, Kuwait, the Phillipines, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Honduras, Peru, etc...? Since you have so frequently advocated war on this forum, I am curious how long you spent in the military, and in which branch?
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Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 05:04 pm
The CIA Factbook CIA Factbook has the July 2003 estimate for Indonesia as 235 millions, just behind the US (290m). Next are Brazil, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

If you were to still lump all those Indic peoples together (as was prior to WW2), you would have a super-nation of 1 billion 340 million!!!
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 05:07 pm
I doubt your question was directed to me, hobitbob, but I was in the Army from '62 - '67.

I don't think it's a partisan issue either, OCCOM Bill. For those who don't like the Bush administration (not strictly a party issue either) in particular, and those who dislike the US in general, it's an easy target.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 05:10 pm
Sorry, it was directed toward OCCOM (who I think perhaps means Occam, as in Ocam's razor), who seems overly fond of war. Roger, I can only grovel in the shoes of one like you, who crawled the area across from the Hauptbanhoff in Frankfurt before I was even born! Very Happy Ahh..seven floors'o'.....
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Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 05:20 pm
Quote:
Saddam was a monster who will soon get his just reward.


There's a fellow called Pinochet who could do with some 'just reward' too. There was also another fellow called Pol Pot, another named Somoza, another called Stroessner, Idi Amin, Soeharto, Marcos........

Oh, yeah. Some of these were friends, some just lived on land devoid of oil. The US is NEVER going to be the world's 'peacemaker' if the qualification for humane intervention relies on the obvious issues of patronage or trade concerns.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 05:38 pm
hobitbob, did you really miss the point entirely?... If so, read the last line again.
To answer your questions:

I volunteered when the first Gulf War was commencing. Recruiters at 3 different branches explained that I would never get to see any action as I was too late. So I chose to remain in college. At that time; there were such a huge number of people volunteering in my area that they were literally trying to deter people from signing up. When the next action came around; I was already too old to be considered. Yes, I do feel a little hypocritical, but there is no remedy for it now.

Your list of countries I would support going to war against is both incomplete and over broad, at the same time. Like I said; any country who routinely commits crimes against humanity against 50% of its population (the women) qualifies. I'm not advocating we immediately start world war 3. Women in Afghanistan are now allowed in school. Iraqi's who are demonstrating against us; are demonstrating of their own free will for the first time in decades. Each criminal that is removed from the streets equates to one less criminal on the streets. I consider a perpetual war on drugs much less important than a perpetual war on perpetrators of crimes against humanity. We are off to a good start. Yes, I think N Korea should be next in line. I believe methodical decisive actions against the perpetrators of these crimes will result in not only removing those in our gun-sights, but also serve as an effective motivational tool to those who know their names are on the list. For the first time in the history of superpowers, there is no feeling of impending doom. If we combine forces for the common good of humanity, we could easily rid the world of rulers like Saddam and Kim Jong IL. Millions of children are born each day into lives of perpetual abuse and degradation. I don't care what color, or nationality they are, they are human beings. We, as the worlds most powerful country, have the ability to help. As you've heard me say before; the ability to help comes with an inherent responsibility to do so. The monitor you are looking at now is your window to the world. How do you justify seeing rape and murder out your window, knowing you have the power to help and feeling no responsibility to intervene?

Again, this was not the point of my last post. Read the last line that one again.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 05:45 pm
If anyone is overfond of war, it's less damaging to just go see "The Return of the King." Now that's a war.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 05:47 pm
Advocating war as a solution to the word's problems is the sign of a poor education and a lack of imagination. Sorry.. my opinion.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 05:48 pm
hobitbob, you are correct about my chosen name. However, the spelling is sometimes OCAM, OCCAM, OCOM or OCCOM. Any choice of spelling I chose would have been both correct and incorrect. I apologize for any confusion.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 05:55 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Advocating war as a solution to the word's problems is the sign of a poor education and a lack of imagination. Sorry.. my opinion.


Pretty much ditto for refusing to acknowledge war as the solution of last resort.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 05:58 pm
I wouldn't worry about it Bill. HB first referred to William of Occam as Occam, then immediately spelled it Ocam. Given this sort of common error when people write or type their mother tongues, i am loathe to criticize others for spelling errors or typos -- unless, of course, i'm just being nasty . . .
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 06:01 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
hobitbob, did you really miss the point entirely?... If so, read the last line again.
To answer your questions:

I volunteered when the first Gulf War was commencing. Recruiters at 3 different branches explained that I would never get to see any action as I was too late.

Why would you wish to "see action?"

Quote:
So I chose to remain in college. At that time; there were such a huge number of people volunteering in my area that they were literally trying to deter people from signing up.

Having had several friends go into the recruiting track, I know that those who volunteer to "see action" are generally considered to be poor prospects as far as becoming soldiers. Killing is easy, living is hard.

Quote:
When the next action came around; I was already too old to be considered.

You were over 37?


Quote:
Yes, I do feel a little hypocritical, but there is no remedy for it now.

other than therapy to explain this desire to kill.

Quote:
Your list of countries I would support going to war against is both incomplete and over broad, at the same time.

That is what was intended. It shows the fallaciouosness of your viewpoint.

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Like I said; any country who routinely commits crimes against humanity against 50% of its population (the women) qualifies.

Which would thus include the US.

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I'm not advocating we immediately start world war 3.

Why not? It would probably provide you with a chance to fight.

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Women in Afghanistan are now allowed in school. Iraqi's who are demonstrating against us; are demonstrating of their own free will for the first time in decades.

Simplistic comments displaying poor knowledge of the nations in question.

Quote:
Each criminal that is removed from the streets equates to one less criminal on the streets.

Again, simplistic, and completely irrelevent to the discussion.


Quote:
I consider a perpetual war on drugs much less important than a perpetual war on perpetrators of crimes against humanity.

Suggest you spend an evening in a moderately busy urban ED.


Quote:
We are off to a good start.

I'm sure the coward in chief has plans for sequels, since the tv ratings were so good.



Quote:
Yes, I think N Korea should be next in line.

And the obliteration of the South Koreans will provide such wonderful film footage, right?

Quote:
I believe methodical decisive actions against the perpetrators of these crimes will result in not only removing those in our gun-sights, but also serve as an effective motivational tool to those who know their names are on the list.

Bishop Arnold Amalric would have called you a true friend.


Quote:
For the first time in the history of superpowers, there is no feeling of impending doom.

Which planet are you living on?

Quote:
If we combine forces for the common good of humanity, we could easily rid the world of rulers like Saddam and Kim Jong IL.

And kill off inconvenient non-americans in the process, right?

Quote:
Millions of children are born each day into lives of perpetual abuse and degradation. I don't care what color, or nationality they are, they are human beings. We, as the worlds most powerful country, have the ability to help.

Too true...hard to experience anything if you're dead. Gee..killing them is an act of mercy!


Quote:
As you've heard me say before; the ability to help comes with an inherent responsibility to do so.

But you seem to ignore the responsibility to refrain from causing harm.

Quote:
The monitor you are looking at now is your window to the world. How do you justify seeing rape and murder out your window, knowing you have the power to help and feeling no responsibility to intervene?

Have spent the last 18 years of my life seeing patients in the ED and on the streets. In addition to treating war refugees in Iraq and Somalia. Killing people is easy. Helping them live is much harder, but more worthwhile.

edited to fix the stupid quote brackets
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 06:03 pm
McGentrix wrote:
hobitbob wrote:
Advocating war as a solution to the word's problems is the sign of a poor education and a lack of imagination. Sorry.. my opinion.


Pretty much ditto for refusing to acknowledge war as the solution of last resort.

But the war in Iraq was the solution of first, not last resort. This made it the coward's way out of solving the Hussein problem. My statement still stands.
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Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 06:04 pm
Quote:
any country who routinely commits crimes against humanity against 50% of its population (the women) qualifies



That's Saudi Arabia straight up. And probably Pakistan. Personally I can't recall Donald "Kill the towelheads" Rumsfield saying an awful lot about the imperative of the US to invade and rehabilitate those nations.
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