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THE US, UN AND IRAQ V

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 08:21 am
While the rest of the world debates the Halliburton contracts, the need for the war in Iraq, the war on terrorism, the essential motives of the Bush adminstration, one simple truth seems to bear out. Upon completion of the conquest of Iraq (if it ever happens) the US will establish a major military presence in Iraq allowing the US to essentially ignore the remainder of the middle east. The Iraqi oil fields will become the primary souce of oil for the US leaving the remander of the world to negoiate with the Saudi's and other lesser players in the oil market. This leaves the US free to ignore the Palestine/Israel issues as well as ongoing threats of terrorism from Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other hotbeds of discontent.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 09:14 am
blatham wrote:
...and the esoteric literary knowledge award goes to...Gel! Pass the cake to your left. Modest portions, please.


The donkey has a prosthesis???
Could I buy a vowel please?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 09:21 am
dys

You got it. The US doesn't need to 'own' that oil, just to control it. So control of Iraq by the US will be ongoing, with the added bonus of a large military base smack in the centre of the middle east. I think that is it...the real motive.

But I would suspect that Israel (the Sharon crowd particularly) were in there pushing for this project too. Even Peres has spoken effusively of how 'comfortable' (my word) it is to have the US next door. I don't think this leaves the US free to ignore Israel/Palestine, at least that wouldn't be a very intelligent idea for them to get in their noggins.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 09:32 am
Dys and Blatham ..... what, if any, part do you see Sestani playing in our continued involvment in Iraq?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 09:51 am
gel

I haven't read enough about him yet to speak with adequate knowledge. He appears moderate (relative to other versions of Muslim clerics in the neighborhood). The US will continue to insist upon ongoing 'occupation' (as above, control of the resource and significant military presence), but I don't know how likely that is to conflict with Sistani's vision.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 10:12 am
blatham wrote:
gel

I haven't read enough about him yet to speak with adequate knowledge. He appears moderate (relative to other versions of Muslim clerics in the neighborhood). The US will continue to insist upon ongoing 'occupation' (as above, control of the resource and significant military presence), but I don't know how likely that is to conflict with Sistani's vision.


He is Islam's equivalent to the Pope. Here is an article, if you are so inclined, describing him to a degree. I value your opinion and appreciate your feedback.



``I will not fight now, not until all peaceful negotiations are exhausted and our leaders call for jihad, then we will fight,'' said Ali Mihsin, 34, a real estate agent. ``Sistani has given the Americans a period of time, I think about a year, to check their intentions whether they are good or not. We are peaceful, but we are the fiercest enemy to a person or country who will touch our religion or our beliefs.''

Please read my most recent post re: Sistani after you read this article.

Thx< ARTICLE >
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 11:04 am
I actually wonder how long before Sistani dies in an "accident" of some sort. His form of reasoned opposition to the US presence can't be allowed to last by those in charge. Sad
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 11:15 am
dyslexia wrote:
While the rest of the world debates the Halliburton contracts, the need for the war in Iraq, the war on terrorism, the essential motives of the Bush adminstration, one simple truth seems to bear out. Upon completion of the conquest of Iraq (if it ever happens) the US will establish a major military presence in Iraq allowing the US to essentially ignore the remainder of the middle east. The Iraqi oil fields will become the primary souce of oil for the US leaving the remander of the world to negoiate with the Saudi's and other lesser players in the oil market. This leaves the US free to ignore the Palestine/Israel issues as well as ongoing threats of terrorism from Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other hotbeds of discontent.


No, no, dys, it's not about oil. Remember?

It's about democracy, or making the world safer, or enforcing UN 1441....

What's this week's reason, again?

Can someone who got the RNC fax on the latest talking points weigh in here?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 11:15 am
gel

Yes, that's the sort of notion I had about the fellow. He appears to be quite unpuppetable, pardon the word.

My view of the various dynamics, even only among the Iraqis themselves, is very dim. So I can't really predict much, even if things were more stable there.

The US can't afford to piss this guy off too much, so if he becomes a significant impediment to their goals, they will act to disempower him (sounds like that may be tough to pull off). They may, as Hobbit suggests, stage an 'accident', but that risks even greater negative consequences.

So I think they will do whatever they can to accomodate him. I really don't, for an instant, think the US presence has anything to do with 'liberating' Iraqis, so they'll allow pretty much any local form of governance so long as some semblance of 'stability' exists such that their objectives re resources and geo-politics are supported.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 11:20 am
Blatham, my reason for thinking Sistani will meet with "misfortune" is the simple fact the folks in charge seem likely to do whatever is the least likely to ensure success in the long run. Therefore instead of attempting to work with him, they will either jail him or kill him. I'm rather glad Wolfy and Rice and co. were not in charge during teh cold war. These are the sort who would have said: "screw it..lets launch a nuclear attack. The Russians will never retaliate..."
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 02:46 pm
blatham wrote:
gel

Yes, that's the sort of notion I had about the fellow. He appears to be quite unpuppetable, pardon the word.

My view of the various dynamics, even only among the Iraqis themselves, is very dim. So I can't really predict much, even if things were more stable there.

The US can't afford to piss this guy off too much, so if he becomes a significant impediment to their goals, they will act to disempower him (sounds like that may be tough to pull off). They may, as Hobbit suggests, stage an 'accident', but that risks even greater negative consequences.

So I think they will do whatever they can to accomodate him. I really don't, for an instant, think the US presence has anything to do with 'liberating' Iraqis, so they'll allow pretty much any local form of governance so long as some semblance of 'stability' exists such that their objectives re resources and geo-politics are supported.


Thanks Blatham, it's reall knawing at Bush & Co. that if they deny Sestani his democratic one vote per person request they come out against democracy in Iraq .... if that is the case what the hell are we fighting and dying for?
I think that if Sestani so much as chokes on a pretzel a Jihad will be the result. We are having trouble with the amount of terrorist we are dealing with at this juncture ... try tossing in several million pissed off Muslims. K T bar the door!
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 02:52 pm
gel

Yes, the administration doesn't have to behave well, or consistently, or legally, or be even slightly honest...they just have to control the debate back home.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 02:57 pm
blatham, You're right in your assessment. Have we seen any body bags coming home?
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 03:01 pm
This is video of Marines killing an Iraqi and then cheering and relishing it.

Not for the squeamish. Click the link and scroll down a little for the embedded Realplayer (works best with broadband, of course):

Take No Prisoners

I don't know the circumstances behind this. If this soon-to-be-dead man shot at (or killed) some of ours, I suppose I can appreciate their "team spirit" at getting the guy.

...but then again, we invaded their country for (what turns out to be) no good reason.

Are we going to wound, then murder, then laugh at every thug -- known or alleged -- on the planet with a gun?

Quote:
"Are you okay?"

My wife asked the question after we learned that Robert Stewart Flores, who killed three professors at the University of Arizona before shooting himself, was a Gulf War veteran.

She asked me the same thing last week, when we learned John Allen Muhammed, better known as the Washington D.C. sniper, is also a Gulf War veteran. Not to mention British Gulf War vet Paul Delaney, who stabbed his ex-girlfriend and mother of two 30 or 40 times. Or Staff Sergeant Frank Ronghi, a Gulf War vet who murdered and sodomized an 11-year old girl in Kosovo. Or Jeffrey Glenn Hutchinson, also a Gulf vet, who murdered his girlfriend and her three children on Sept. 11, 1998. Or Joseph Ludlam, who murdered his former manager in November 2000. And then there's the most famous Gulf War veteran of all, Timothy McVeigh, who killed hundreds of people in a homegrown terrorist attack in Oklahoma City.

* * *

Remember, when you go to the gas pump to buy your Middle Eastern oil, secured by the blood of American soldiers, this too is part of the price you pay. Not just being party to killings halfway around the world, which our society seems to tolerate with a glib "Let's change the channel" attitude, but also the lives torn apart back home.

You may decide it's okay -- your chances of being murdered by a combat veteran are still less than the risk of being killed in a highway accident. But as we send another few hundred thousand young men and women off to war, the odds are about to get worse.


Another unintended consequence, I fear.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 03:03 pm
DPid, Usually, if the initial justification of anything starts off wrong, everything that follows usually follows in the same vain. WRONG.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 03:24 pm
PD

The sacredness of human life.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 03:44 pm
"That was awesome. Let's do it again." jeeesh!
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 04:01 pm
ci

I know. A militarized state - and the US is that - will encourage pathologies. I don't know how you guys are going to wrestle your 'democracy' back from from the machinery of of all those folks and entities which thrive on war and the threat of it, but it is a prayer of mine that you will.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 04:07 pm
But according to chattering masses of unwashed Wal-mart shoppers, the Marines were "doin' the amurrcin thing!" We have so glorified violent action against others that we often cannot see it for the morally repugnant act that it is.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2003 04:08 pm
blatham, What can we do when the 'majority' of Americans show in polls that they favor GWBush as our president? I'm at a complete loss.
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