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Omnipotence impossible?

 
 
Patty phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 07:10 am
@hadad,
Isn't it a meaningless paradox to ask someone to do a certain thing and not do that thing at the same time?

In the case of the the rock that God can't lift, i guess either case would be against God.

If God can't create such rock therefore he isn't omnipotent.
If he can but he cannot lift, the same conclusion.

Are we then saying that the inability of the infinite God to be finite is his own finitude?

For us to beg God to do and reduce himself to something intrinsically finite and imperfect things, does not give us give us the conclusion that God therefore is finite.

What is the value of infinity if people think that it can only be understood through finite modes of doing and existence. What about, not doing?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 08:40 am
@Patty phil,


---------- Post added 03-31-2010 at 09:43 AM ----------

0 Replies
 
ikurwa89
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 02:52 am
@hadad,
I think your confused about the definition of omnipotence.

God can only do what is LOGICALLY POSSIBLE!

It's like asking him to make a square circle, which is logically impossible. This argument is really weak, because it assumes omnipotence is the ability to do anything(anything that is logically and illogical).

Also a side note, if he creates anything it follows that he can NOT be bounded by that particular thing.


Your better off dwelling on free will paradox or problem of evil because these two get the most attention by philosophers.
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 11:03 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;146027 wrote:
Yeah a lot of abstract things which defy definition seem to be topics of discussion. The reason why the concept comes up so often, especially in a philosophical environment is because there are people who are convinced that discussing god is in some way philosophical. It is just imagination and definitions that do not logically work. Some people insist on talking about it as if it were a real thing worth discussing. It seems nothing more than discussing ones mental illness.
But discussing ones mental illness helps cure it, and the same goes for god =)

Krumple;146127 wrote:

You are right, the truth will be the truth regardless of what one thinks or believes. If that is the case then all avoidance to that understand is irrational behavior. You have no convincing evidence to insist that such a being exists so it is irrational to actually believe one does. The same goes for the after life. You have no convincing evidence to prove that an afterlife exists, so it is irrational to believe that there is an after life. It is nothing different than deciding a criminal case. If there is no convincing evidence, why would you assume guilt? It is irrational and I am glad I live in a time when convincing evidence is required to presume guilt. Rather than during a time that you were convicted of being a witch and sentenced to burning.
I would say its irrational to believe god does not exist either, we cannot know, so the rational option seems to be believing that god may exist.

As for afterlife, I believe it certainly exists, due to certain logical conclusions I have reached then pondering about the universe and its origins. If you are interested, I will post then here.

chikong;146152 wrote:
Being an omnipotent of a God is part of being a God! You cannot take that away from him because if you would then you are no longer talking of a God. God is omnipotent period plain and simple!
I disagree, thats the christian meaning for the word god. The greeks had an entirely different meaning, for example. And, for the sake of fantasy strategy games, we need the word "god" to be eligible for other things =)
chikong
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 07:22 am
@HexHammer,
your funny dude!!!! its the holy trinity you are talking about, three persons in one. It is considered as one God for us catholics. So now if you question again mystery of our God then you are also questioning his being as a God!!! God is God nothing is impossible in him and as a finite being you can't question the infinite...lol!!!

---------- Post added 04-02-2010 at 08:24 AM ----------

hello!!!! we are the talking here about God not gods!!!!
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 09:42 am
@manored,
manored;147111 wrote:
But discussing ones mental illness helps cure it, and the same goes for god =)

I would say its irrational to believe god does not exist either, we cannot know, so the rational option seems to be believing that god may exist.

As for afterlife, I believe it certainly exists, due to certain logical conclusions I have reached then pondering about the universe and its origins. If you are interested, I will post then here.

I disagree, thats the christian meaning for the word god. The greeks had an entirely different meaning, for example. And, for the sake of fantasy strategy games, we need the word "god" to be eligible for other things =)


Please post it I am very interested in what you have to say!!
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 09:57 am
@chikong,
chikong;147501 wrote:
your funny dude!!!! its the holy trinity you are talking about, three persons in one. It is considered as one God for us catholics. So now if you question again mystery of our God then you are also questioning his being as a God!!! God is God nothing is impossible in him and as a finite being you can't question the infinite...lol!!!

---------- Post added 04-02-2010 at 08:24 AM ----------

hello!!!! we are the talking here about God not gods!!!!
God may be perfect but your description of him is not. As an agnostic I believe he defies description, if he EXISTS.
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 02:43 pm
@chikong,
chikong;147501 wrote:
your funny dude!!!! its the holy trinity you are talking about, three persons in one. It is considered as one God for us catholics. So now if you question again mystery of our God then you are also questioning his being as a God!!! God is God nothing is impossible in him and as a finite being you can't question the infinite...lol!!!

---------- Post added 04-02-2010 at 08:24 AM ----------

hello!!!! we are the talking here about God not gods!!!!


One god is not enough! I wanna more god in my french fries! =)

Alan McDougall;147524 wrote:
Please post it I am very interested in what you have to say!!
Ok =)

They are a bit unpolished though, I commited the stupidity of not writting it down then it was clear in my mind. I reel back my mind and elaborate if there is something unclear or unlogical =)

First Argument:
There is no way to prove that this life is real, and thus it certainly is not, although it is certain that I exist. There is, also, no proof of that the end of the conscience is possible, for it has never happened, nor can it ever happen as I would not be able to perceive it.
In other words, only because I perceive myself as an human, and humans die, it does not follow that I die, because my humanity is an ilusion.
Second Argument:
The mind is the sole perceiver of the universe. The mind, thus, cannot end, for there would be no mind to perceive this end. It would be like trying to have events in a realm without time.
Third Argument:
The universe is infinite in both size and in the variety of its contents. It is so because it can exist without explanation. If it is infinite in both size and content, then certainly everything happens on it, including minds being "recycled".
In the third, "without explanation" refers to how there is something, rather than nothing.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 10:07 pm
@manored,
manored;147608 wrote:
One god is not enough! I wanna more god in my french fries! =)

Ok =)

They are a bit unpolished though, I commited the stupidity of not writting it down then it was clear in my mind. I reel back my mind and elaborate if there is something unclear or unlogical =)

First Argument:
There is no way to prove that this life is real, and thus it certainly is not, although it is certain that I exist. There is, also, no proof of that the end of the conscience is possible, for it has never happened, nor can it ever happen as I would not be able to perceive it.
In other words, only because I perceive myself as an human, and humans die, it does not follow that I die, because my humanity is an ilusion.
Second Argument:
The mind is the sole perceiver of the universe. The mind, thus, cannot end, for there would be no mind to perceive this end. It would be like trying to have events in a realm without time.
Third Argument:
The universe is infinite in both size and in the variety of its contents. It is so because it can exist without explanation. If it is infinite in both size and content, then certainly everything happens on it, including minds being "recycled".
In the third, "without explanation" refers to how there is something, rather than nothing.


I agree with everything you posted except the universe being infinite and eternal. The universe had a beginning as it will have an ending somewhen if the unspeakable far future
manored
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 11:43 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;147690 wrote:
I agree with everything you posted except the universe being infinite and eternal. The universe had a beginning as it will have an ending somewhen if the unspeakable far future
What meaning are you giving to the world? Im giving the meaning "all that exists". Not only this our world, but all other worlds that may exist, and the world that contains it, and the world that contains the world that contains it, and so on ad infinitum =)

If you mean universe as in "this universe", this place where the Big Bang happened, then I agree it will end someday.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 10:56 pm
@manored,
manored;147881 wrote:
What meaning are you giving to the world? Im giving the meaning "all that exists". Not only this our world, but all other worlds that may exist, and the world that contains it, and the world that contains the world that contains it, and so on ad infinitum =)

If you mean universe as in "this universe", this place where the Big Bang happened, then I agree it will end someday.


I think you mean existence will always exist, but the part of existence that is our universe will definitely end somewhen in the unimaginable far future Smile
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 01:14 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;148090 wrote:
I think you mean existence will always exist, but the part of existence that is our universe will definitely end somewhen in the unimaginable far future Smile
Our universe is probably not the only universe.
Can an omnipotent god be in relationship to the world? If god has all the power is the world not just an extension of god?
When god self limits and gives meaningful freedom and choice to man is he still omnipotent?
How does an omnipotent god avoid responsiblity for natural evil (earthquakes, floods, disease, pestilence, famine) etc.?
Is the God of the Bible portrayed as omnipotent?
What does one gain in theological terms by the concept of divine omnipotence?
Omnipotence is a theological mistake, god is a persuasive not a coercive entity. God is very powerful but not all powerful. God brings order to the formless void and primordial chaos. God is the ordering, rational and creative principle of the universe but not "ex nihilo". IMHO.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 05:54 am
@prothero,
prothero;148112 wrote:
Our universe is probably not the only universe.
Can an omnipotent god be in relationship to the world? If god has all the power is the world not just an extension of god?
When god self limits and gives meaningful freedom and choice to man is he still omnipotent?
How does an omnipotent god avoid responsiblity for natural evil (earthquakes, floods, disease, pestilence, famine) etc.?
Is the God of the Bible portrayed as omnipotent?
What does one gain in theological terms by the concept of divine omnipotence?
Omnipotence is a theological mistake, god is a persuasive not a coercive entity. God is very powerful but not all powerful. God brings order to the formless void and primordial chaos. God is the ordering, rational and creative principle of the universe but not "ex nihilo". IMHO.


God is omnipotent, but he does not use his power all the time, indeed he limits it because we have a limited freewill
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 06:19 am
@Alan McDougall,
Is it free or limited Alan? Why should he be particular when its used, why not when a child is being raped? not logical at all, is he?be honest with yourselves, please.
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 09:13 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;148171 wrote:
God is omnipotent, but he does not use his power all the time, indeed he limits it because we have a limited freewill
When you say this you make God subject to the charge that
God in some way permits the torture, rape and murder of children and the formation of extermination camps, purges and genocides besides all the natural evil and suffering in the world (pestilence, famine, disease, plaques, earthquakes, floods, etc) which has no connection to free will.

Theologically you lose much more than you gain.
It is better to preserve gods goodness than his power.
Since god is ultimately ineffable mystery; if you must conceive of god in human terms better to concieve of a god who suffers with his creatures than an all powerful judge, ruler and tyrant who is impassive to human suffering.
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 11:07 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;148090 wrote:
I think you mean existence will always exist, but the part of existence that is our universe will definitely end somewhen in the unimaginable far future Smile
Yes, this is exactly it.

Alan McDougall;148171 wrote:
God is omnipotent, but he does not use his power all the time, indeed he limits it because we have a limited freewill
God cant be omnipotent because there are always greater things, although he may be omnipotent in the sense of "being able to control everything in our world". But even in that case, I dont think it matters. After all, whats the difference between god having all the good intentions but limited power, and god having all the power but limited good intentions? =)

God needs to be good or it is not god? I dont think so.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 03:18 am
@manored,
manored;148245 wrote:
God cant be omnipotent because there are always greater things, although he may be omnipotent in the sense of "being able to control everything in our world". But even in that case, I dont think it matters. After all, whats the difference between god having all the good intentions but limited power, and god having all the power but limited good intentions? =)
And excatly do you know that with such certainty?

It kinda sickens me that everybody knows so much about something that they'r never met. They'r so smart about God, yet know nothing about quantum physics, know nothing about psycology ..don't know much in general.
manored
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 07:24 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;148469 wrote:
And excatly do you know that with such certainty?

It kinda sickens me that everybody knows so much about something that they'r never met. They'r so smart about God, yet know nothing about quantum physics, know nothing about psycology ..don't know much in general.
I dont understand the first sentence, but I get the general idea.

I know those things because they are logical conclusions, aka, if god exists he certainly is within the boundaries of these conclusions.

These people you have met are religions people, and know nothing about god. I am not a religions person, I am looking at the concept of god from an entirely logical point of view: If he exists, he is obviously not omnipotent, and its obvious that either he doesnt have power to end evil on earth, doesnt wants to or both, because evil on earth is still here. That can be applied to anything he is not doing, and that actually works for people and what they are not doing as well. Beyond that, I dont think there is anything else we can conclude about god.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 07:31 am
@hadad,
Quote:

And excatly do you know that with such certainty?
Ahemm, I missed a "how", And excatly how do you know.
manored
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 07:35 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;148524 wrote:
Ahemm, I missed a "how", And excatly how do you know.
Thinking about it.

There. Are you happy? =)
0 Replies
 
 

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