0
   

Omnipotence impossible?

 
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 12:55 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;114151 wrote:
Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus was a text of great importance for the positivists. The Tractatus introduced many doctrines which later influenced logical positivism, including the conception of philosophy as a "critique of language," and the possibility of drawing a theoretically principled distinction between intelligible and nonsensical discourse.

Philosophy must not be reduced to linguistic analysis or limited to those statments which can be proven. Wittgenstein himself later repudiated or modified his position form the tractatus and never considered himself a logical positivist. A discussion of meaning of terms is appropriate in clarifying communication but when it becomes the entire process, philosophy as rational specualtion about questions which are important but have no definitive answers is lost.

Analytic philosophy, linguistic analysis and logical positivism nearly destroyed philosophy as an independent meaningful endeavor. Logic and science are the stepchildren of philosophy not the other way around.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 01:04 am
@prothero,
prothero;114321 wrote:
Philosophy must not be reduced to linguistic analysis or limited to those statments which can be proven. Wittgenstein himself later repudiated or modified his position form the tractatus and never considered himself a logical positivist. A discussion of meaning of terms is appropriate in clarifying communication but when it becomes the entire process, philosophy as rational specualtion about questions which are important but have no definitive answers is lost.

Analytic philosophy, linguistic analysis and logical positivism nearly destroyed philosophy as an independent meaningful endeavor. Logic and science are the stepchildren of philosophy not the other way around.


You're telling me! Perhaps you noticed this already, but I quoted this as a bad example. Yeah, Wittgenstein improved. Not to deny the genius moments in the Tract, but he certainly improved. That said, he's pretty boring most of the time. Rorty pulls out the best quotes, and mixes a cocktail with some Davidson. You read The White Mythology? For me, language is a nexus of trope, at least any kind of abstract discourse. The analytics are reductionists. It's like they don't have conversations with their wives. As if human discourse could be simplified with nothing but more human discourse. So I love the phrase "impossibility of closure..."
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 01:13 am
@prothero,
prothero;114321 wrote:
Philosophy must not be reduced to linguistic analysis or limited to those statments which can be proven. Wittgenstein himself later repudiated or modified his position form the tractatus and never considered himself a logical positivist. A discussion of meaning of terms is appropriate in clarifying communication but when it becomes the entire process, philosophy as rational specualtion about questions which are important but have no definitive answers is lost.

Analytic philosophy, linguistic analysis and logical positivism nearly destroyed philosophy as an independent meaningful endeavor. Logic and science are the stepchildren of philosophy not the other way around.



It might be that rational speculation about questions that have no answer is exactly the job for linguistic analysis, so it might be discovered just why the question has no answer. And, perhaps, can have no answer. Here, for instance, is a question that can have no answer; how high is up? It is a child's question. But it might be interesting to consider what it is about that question which makes it unanswerable.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 01:18 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114326 wrote:
It might be that rational speculation about questions that have no answer is exactly the job for linguistic analysis, so it might be discovered just why the question has no answer. And, perhaps, can have no answer. Here, for instance, is a question that can have no answer; how high is up? It is a child's question. But it might be interesting to consider what it is about that question which makes it unanswerable.


It's not that I don't see what the ideal is, and it's a good ideal. But a person can start trashing anything that isn't easily computable. At some point, it becomes a matter of taste and interpretation. I like much of what gets called "Continental philosophy." Any system that can find no value in it is a system I can find little value in. Of course every philosopher is different. Rorty is a great middleman, who could see the value on both sides. I want both a fork and a spoon, not just one or the other.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 01:23 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;114328 wrote:
It's not that I don't see what the ideal is, and it's a good ideal. But a person can start trashing anything that isn't easily computable. At some point, it becomes a matter of taste and interpretation. I like much of what gets called "Continental philosophy." Any system that can find no value in it is a system I can find little value in. Of course every philosopher is different. Rorty is a great middleman, who could see the value on both sides. I want both a fork and a spoon, not just one or the other.


How is your reply connected with my post to which you are ostensibly replying?
0 Replies
 
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 01:29 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114326 wrote:
...how high is up? It is a child's question. But it might be interesting to consider what it is about that question which makes it unanswerable.



Maybe because it doesnt make sense?

BTW Im surprised questions like the Op are still around, seeing how Aquinas put this to rest centuries ago.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 01:35 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;114334 wrote:

BTW Im surprised questions like the Op are still around, seeing how Aquinas put this to rest centuries ago.


Philosophy buries its gravediggers.

---------- Post added 12-26-2009 at 02:37 AM ----------

kennethamy;114332 wrote:
How is your reply connected with my post to which you are ostensibly replying?


Oh, I think that was a mistake. Sorry. I was on the phone, screwed up. I either misread your post or prothers or something. Like I say, sorry.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 02:05 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;114334 wrote:
Maybe because it doesnt make sense?

BTW Im surprised questions like the Op are still around, seeing how Aquinas put this to rest centuries ago.


Sure it doesn't. But why? Maybe Aquinas tells us why. What does he say? In any case, as I said, saying why it makes no sense, and is, therefore, unanswerable, may be just the job of linguistic philosophy.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 02:13 am
@hadad,
For me "omnipotence" is a difficult word to unpack. A person could stretch this word in all sorts of ways.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 02:17 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;114362 wrote:
For me "omnipotence" is a difficult word to unpack. A person could stretch this word in all sorts of ways.


Here, let me (and Aquinas) help you. The ability to do whatever can be done.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 02:20 am
@hadad,
I don't know. How about the ability to do all -- anything that can be imagined, including that which "transcends" imagination......
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 02:27 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;114369 wrote:
I don't know. How about the ability to do all -- anything that can be imagined, including that which "transcends" imagination......


If what can be imagined is something that can be done, sure.
0 Replies
 
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 02:31 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114356 wrote:
Sure it doesn't. But why?



It seems like youre comparing two ideas that are categorically different and inherently ambiguous.

How are you defining 'up'?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 02:36 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;114374 wrote:
It seems like youre comparing two ideas that are categorically different and inherently ambiguous.

How are you defining 'up'?


Linguistic philosophy. Of course, the trouble with the question is that "up" is not the name of a place; it is the name of a direction. And that is why the question "makes no sense", and is unanswerable. Now, suppose all unanswerable questions in philosophy were like that?
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 02:41 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114375 wrote:
Now, suppose all unanswerable questions in philosophy were like that?


Indeed.

It seems we were both testing each other...
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 02:44 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;114377 wrote:
Indeed.

It seems we were both testing each other...


I wasn't testing you.
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 02:50 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114379 wrote:
I wasn't testing you.



Neither was I...


:shifty:
0 Replies
 
Emil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 03:40 am
@hadad,
Even though modal logic has revealed the problems with such arguments as in the OP, people still waste time making up all kind of arbitrary other responses to the argument.
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 05:20 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114249 wrote:
Yes. If you have a certain idea of philosophy, you might very well think so.

Sokal's Hoax


Ha, I am aware of that hoax and lol when I first was aware of it. What can you expect, as a joke rendered, by he who spends most of his life in the cloister halls of academia, without real human experiences under their belt.

Now that was a work of art aimed at a thirsty audience drinking muddy water and giving them just what the wanted. Ha!:whistling:

William
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 06:12 am
@William,
William;114392 wrote:
Ha, I am aware of that hoax and lol when I first was aware of it. What can you expect, as a joke rendered, by he who spends most of his life in the cloister halls of academia, without real human experiences under their belt.

Now that was a work of art aimed at a thirsty audience drinking muddy water and giving them just what the wanted. Ha!:whistling:

William


All of this postmodern stuff takes place in the "cloisted halls of academia".

---------- Post added 12-26-2009 at 07:15 AM ----------

Emil;114385 wrote:
Even though modal logic has revealed the problems with such arguments as in the OP, people still waste time making up all kind of arbitrary other responses to the argument.


First you have to understand modal logic. People still talk as if space and time were empty buckets, too.
0 Replies
 
 

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