War in Afghanistan

@urangutan,

urangutan;81199 wrote:

Kennethamy, I do not deny that the September 11 attack on America was an attrocity, but can you stand and say that the Masacre at Wounded Knee was any different. Slavery was an abollition toward humanity, yet still offer no retribution. The Taliban. How different are they from government that you still stand proudly behind.

Hatched in Afghanistan, it was plagued in America. They certainly didn't learn to fly in Afghanistan. You thought terrorism was a snake that if you cut off the head it would die. You call it a war but your adversary is only visible part time and then it is often too late. What do you offer Afghanistan. Peace, I don't think so.

Does the United States have the right to do what they like for themselves. Isn't that the same same sentiment that terrorists use. Hey, don't missunderstand me, we are in Afghanistan together but we have no solution. All we have done is exchange the power of force. What is the solution, continued occupance, blanket removal, kill em all. How about daily dasie cuttin runs. Think for crying out loud say at least something usefull. Not just well he hit me first.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Whatever the United States did that was wrong, does not, in the least, make 9/11 better, and does not in the least mean that we should not have attacked and tried to destroy the Taliban, and Al Quaeda, especially since not having done so would have invited more attacks. What you say is irrelevant. It is not merely he hit me first; it is we have to stop him from hitting us again, and show others who plan to hit us that they will suffer if they do.We cannot let others attack us with impunity. That would be suicidal. It is because we reacted weakly to previous attacks that we encouraged the 9/11 attacks. Acting weakly again would have encouraged further attacks.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;80570 wrote:

The war in Afghanistan has not ended terrorism. While the US has not suffered an attack on US soil since the invasion, other countries continue to suffer attacks.

Afghanistan was our fault in the first place - we aided the Afghanis against the Russians, and then ignored the necessary nation building in that country, as others have mentioned; without education, especially, the country was bound to slide into increasingly radical hands.

Of course, it all goes back to colonialism, anyway. We're just the modern British using different methods.

This is true, and World War II (widely seen as a justifiable war) didn't end dictatorships, fascism, or genocide. Every country has the right to defend itself from violence and we live in a violent world, so war may not be entirely avoidable at times. But, war isn't a solution and shouldn't be seen as an end to problems.
That's something I learned from Howard Zinn.

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@kennethamy,

kennethamy;81195 wrote:

But the 9/11 plot was hatched in Afganistan by Bin Laden and his cronies, and the Taliban would not give him up. Should the United States have done nothing about the 9/11 attack?

if i remember rightly, it was the taliban that was giving sanctuary to osama bin laden. afghanistan happened to be where they were doing it-usa did not declare war on afghanistan, but on 'terror' and proceeded to claim the right to bomb afghanistan without support of the world community. all it has done is destroyed a beautiful country, caused a lot of anger and hatred, and left a lot of children without legs to stand on from all their land mines, as well as forced its citizens to become refugees and killed more civilians than the number of american soldiers that have died.

what usa could have done is take precautions to see that they werent so vulnerable to attack in the future.

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@salima,

There should be no dispute over the presence of ISAF in Afghanistan but their role should be defined to themselves and to the Afghan nation.

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@Arif phil,

What ever anyones views on our commitment in Afghanistan, for the majority of Afghans our presence is required.What they dont want is us arriving with promises and then leaving without fulfilling them.

Its not just a war against the taliban its war against the infiltration of insurgents from pakistan.When the Afghans can secure their own future we with their consent will leave.Democracy will decide if we are required or not,not silly rhetoric on the evils of American foreign policy.

I dont hear the condemnation of the invasion by foreign insurgents or the evils that the Taliban are still inflicting on the civilian population.All the taliban have to do is commit themselves to the ballot box and this struggle would end tomorrow.I wonder how many would let their close neighbour be victimised by bandits and complain the police where not effective,we have a duty to act if and when we can.Give me the opportunity ide be in Darfur as well.

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@chad3006,

chad3006;81296 wrote:

This is true, and World War II (widely seen as a justifiable war) didn't end dictatorships, fascism, or genocide. Every country has the right to defend itself from violence and we live in a violent world, so war may not be entirely avoidable at times. But, war isn't a solution and shouldn't be seen as an end to problems.
That's something I learned from Howard Zinn.

A solution to what? World War 2 solved the problem of whether Hitler would dominate the world, and that's something. So what you learned from Zinn is that we should not have fought Hitler to prevent Hitler from winning. He is a silly man.

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@kennethamy,

Zinn's point is not that war never achieves a goal, but that war cannot put an end to the larger, systemic problems facing humanity. No war is going to end fascism, for example, although a war might put an end to one particular fascist regime.

Give Zinn a read before you call him silly. He is one of the best American historians on the scene, and has been for decades.

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@Arif phil,

Xris you need to believe me when I say, that I would encourage you to go to Darfur, as I would encourage our government to go but we cannot go with, like you say empty promises. It has been eight years in Afghanistan and we are still none the wiser of our presence. Do we stay until all insergency is stopped. Is that why we are there. You talk about Afghan securing its own future and I am offering a solution to finding a future. Just as there is no future without effort, there is none either, without acceptance. We as the west have to accept that the world is getting tougher. We see it in our own costs of living and workforce. What hope have nations like Afghanistan got if we do not open their way into our world. Be it at the expense of having a tighter buget on our part but cant we afford to trim opff the fat the lines our plate.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;81510 wrote:

Zinn's point is not that war never achieves a goal, but that war cannot put an end to the larger, systemic problems facing humanity. No war is going to end fascism, for example, although a war might put an end to one particular fascist regime.

Give Zinn a read before you call him silly. He is one of the best American historians on the scene, and has been for decades.

Do you think those who propose violence as an answer dont realise the consequences or the futility of it use.It can never be the answer but till men of all persuasions lay down their arms, it is inevitable.
Afghanistans suffered at the hands of the zealots and bandits and still are,should we ignore their plight because of the cost to us?If we dont confront these zealots they will infect more and more with their evil.
We must empower those moderate Afghans,so they are able to control there own future and if the zealots refuse to negotiate,which they are,we have no alternative.

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@xris,

xris;81545 wrote:

Do you think those who propose violence as an answer dont realise the consequences or the futility of it use.

Most of them? No. Not the ones making the decision, anyway. And if they do, they just don't care - because their violence makes them money. These truly are, in the words of your nation's great band, "war pigs".

xris;81545 wrote:

It can never be the answer but till men of all persuasions lay down their arms, it is inevitable.

Perhaps - but nothing about this suggests that we should look to violence for solutions. Violence will occur until men stop being violent, obviously, but there are things we non-violent men can do to put violence in abeyance.

xris;81545 wrote:

Afghanistans suffered at the hands of the zealots and bandits and still are,should we ignore their plight because of the cost to us?If we dont confront these zealots they will infect more and more with their evil.
We must empower those moderate Afghans,so they are able to control there own future and if the zealots refuse to negotiate,which they are,we have no alternative.

I'm not saying we should not have removed that regime. But there is more to the matter.

Last time the US helped the Afghanis, what did we do? We sent weapons. That's it. Once they beat back the Russians, the country fell to extremism because we did not invest in Afghani education, infrastructure, ect.

If we make the same mistake, if all we do is provide guns and bombs, Afghanistan will inevitably drift back into extremism. Sometimes we have to use a bit of force, out of pure pragmatism. As much as I hate it, I accept that. But we also have to exercise some foresight and ask ourselves - now that the bombing is done, what must we do to make sure that we will not have to drop bombs again in the future?

In the past, the US has overlooked this element. We have to recognize that zealots do not spring from nowhere, but that zealots are the product of something. That something is lack of education and opportunity to lead productive, successful lives.

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@Arif phil,

Thank-you Didymos Thomas. I tried to begin to say something like this, I don't know whether my language got it all screwed up or what but in the end I just blew it all out the door. I believe we must start with the productive point first. No good offering them education that they do not build for themselves. It is just another form of indoctrination. They must produce so they can build and then reach a level of their own success.

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@Didymos Thomas,

I have hopes that we wont desert these souls again.It has become very painful seing the young men coming back in coffins.I do hope their sacrifice is not for nothing.

---------- Post added 08-06-2009 at 06:04 AM ----------

urangutan;81567 wrote:

Thank-you Didymos Thomas. I tried to begin to say something like this, I don't know whether my language got it all screwed up or what but in the end I just blew it all out the door. I believe we must start with the productive point first. No good offering them education that they do not build for themselves. It is just another form of indoctrination. They must produce so they can build and then reach a level of their own success.

Yes but your idea of growing poppies for the wests medical needs is just a bit naive.How much opium do think we use?No ones forcing western education on them, we are just giving them the opportunity to teach themselves,something the taliban refused to allow.They need clean water ,electricity,hospitals,security, we are providing it slowly but without help from the worlds economies its going to take a long time.Countries that do not want to make human sacrifices should at least be helping more with the infrastructure,that is the only way this war will be trualy won.

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@xris,

urangutan;81567 wrote:

I believe we must start with the productive point first. No good offering them education that they do not build for themselves. It is just another form of indoctrination. They must produce so they can build and then reach a level of their own success.

Well, we have to help them develop an education system with native teachers. Afghanis teaching Afghanis. The Muslim world has a history of education, scholarship, and study every bit as magnificent as the western tradition. This can be rebuilt if we help them.

xris;81570 wrote:

I have hopes that we wont desert these souls again.It has become very painful seing the young men coming back in coffins.I do hope their sacrifice is not for nothing.

Me too. But it's a faint glimmer. There's just no immediate dollar incentive, and that's what drives policy.

Not only are the coffins painful to witness, but also those boys who survive. I live in a military town. I see the new recruits come in for training, and the shell-shocked veterans return. Heartbreaking. More often than not, the sacrifice is in vain.

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@Arif phil,

We can only insist on one thing reguarding the education system and that is that there be no religious influence. We cannot allow ourselves to be used as a scapegoat for future zealots if we do more than this. If we insist that the education system is void of religion, that is to say that their religious system can hold classes of its own, but the education system revolves around proven subjects of literacy, mathematics, science, arts and sports. We must not encourage them any further than this. We must not even suggest which book to read or art form to develop.

Again I reiterate, that there must be a ready market for the product of which I spoke, that is not a direct passage to the black market. We as western nations must set the example and out bid that market, for the only product I see fit for cultivation. Opium.

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@urangutan,

urangutan;81581 wrote:

We can only insist on one thing reguarding the education system and that is that there be no religious influence. We cannot allow ourselves to be used as a scapegoat for future zealots if we do more than this. If we insist that the education system is void of religion, that is to say that their religious system can hold classes of its own, but the education system revolves around proven subjects of literacy, mathematics, science, arts and sports. We must not encourage them any further than this. We must not even suggest which book to read or art form to develop.

Again I reiterate, that there must be a ready market for the product of which I spoke, that is not a direct passage to the black market. We as western nations must set the example and out bid that market, for the only product I see fit for cultivation. Opium.

How can you say we should not intefere one minute and then say we must dictate no religious influences.We could encourage a secular education but as its not our decission we can only observe.
Opium producers are moving away from the traditional poppies and the world has sufficient supplies, are you suggesting other poor areas sacrifice their income for the Afghans?Farming has always delivered in Afghanistan, it just needs new crops and a good irrigation system.

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@Arif phil,

New crops are great for feeding themselves but who are they going to sell vegetables too. Yes there is plentiful poppies grown in the world because countries like Australia grow their own and enough to sell into the marketplace. Why.

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@urangutan,

urangutan;81596 wrote:

New crops are great for feeding themselves but who are they going to sell vegetables too. Yes there is plentiful poppies grown in the world because countries like Australia grow their own and enough to sell into the marketplace. Why.

So you want to tell your fellow countrymen to stop, so others can gain from their loss?best of luck...

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@xris,

urangutan;81581 wrote:

We can only insist on one thing reguarding the education system and that is that there be no religious influence. We cannot allow ourselves to be used as a scapegoat for future zealots if we do more than this. If we insist that the education system is void of religion, that is to say that their religious system can hold classes of its own, but the education system revolves around proven subjects of literacy, mathematics, science, arts and sports. We must not encourage them any further than this. We must not even suggest which book to read or art form to develop.

What we need to do is build schools, pay for textbooks, computers, food and basic healthcare at schools to promote attendeance, offer training for educators, help pay educators so that there is enough incentive for them to stay in the field of work.

The last thing we need to do is demand that religion be excluded from the education system. That alone would cause an extremist backlash. We have to be sensitive of the culture - imposing our secular beliefs upon their culture is a recipe for disaster. That is colonialism. The very definition of colonialism. We've already gone down that path and it lead to devastation.

Look, I am all about secular public education. I do not want religious instruction in public schools in the US, for example. But we have to be pragmatic. We have to recognize the cultural differences between modernized West and third world Middle East. In time, they will slowly gravitate toward secular education on their own terms - any other process necessarily leads to extremist reaction and, more often than not, violence. You want another Taliban? Try to force religion out of Afghani education.

I understand the concern of having radical clerics teach - but this is why we in the West need to help train the educators in Afghanistan, to offer them free education so that Afghanis can teach Afghanis. By doing this, we will temper the radical edge, we will have moderate and even liberal Muslim scholars teaching Islam, instead of radicals who preach violence and hate.

There are real solutions to the problems in Afghanistan, but colonialism and neo-colonialism are not the solutions. We've tried that. It fails by every imaginable standard.

urangutan;81581 wrote:

Again I reiterate, that there must be a ready market for the product of which I spoke, that is not a direct passage to the black market. We as western nations must set the example and out bid that market, for the only product I see fit for cultivation. Opium.

The opium problem is another serious matter. At the moment, the US government subsidizes opium production in Turkey at great expense for US pharmaceutical companies. Instead of this over-priced Turkish product, we need to institute an efficient system of buying opium from local Afghani farmers for our pharma needs.

This would save the US a great sum of money, and rebuild the Afghani economy with a respectable, legal, and healthy trade - while also significantly reducing the illegal opium trade in that nation which currently accounts for over 80% of the world's opium supply used for heroin.

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@Arif phil,

Stop being nice. Let the soldiers fight.
That's the only way that ever worked. Being nice feels noble.
Quit that democracy crap. We own the place.
Put in 60.000 more troops.
Beat the enemy, then bring them democracy when getting out.

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@EmperorNero,

Send 60,00 troops to beat who? You're fighting Afghans who are resisting occupation from an invading army. You want to kill them all and then what? You cannot kill them all because when one dies another rises and takes his place. This war can never be won, but I suspect winning was never the objective.

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War in Afghanistan

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