meaning is God.

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

Just curious how it has been fruiotful Boag.

I can see hwo humans react to being plagued but I am not sure how they cause the disease through reaction.

Pathfinder, Smile

In the individual, reaction is the disease. many times it is not the invading organism itself that causes a particular negative reaction, but the toxins it releases within your system. Health travels along as an object would travel in a straight line in a vacuum, resistence, an anology for it would be ware, ageing, so other than ageing there would be nothing to deny us immortality, as ageing is simply unrepaired damage. Relative too, to our environment, we are entirely reactionary, our biology is plastic, our brains are plastic, that plasticity is do to being a reactionary organism.

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@Ola,

Biology isn't entirely reactive. There is a certain degree of physiological determinism at play which if nothing else constrains the repertoire of reactions to external events.

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@Ola,

Let's not lose track of the issue here.

I think we are discussing that Boagie believes that there is no meaning to life because life is basically a biological function without any actuual requirement for altruism or self evolution.

But isn't that just a symbolic representation of the mindless and selfless human sitting next to a large pile of mammoth crap and suffering the effects of it simply because it has a biological reaction to his physical environment, and he has no mind to get up and move because it is just natural?

This is the whole question Boag, that we do not have to just sit down and die because it is bioligical, and that we can choose to get up and move away from that stinking pile of filth. Please, no reprimands for what that pile may or may not symbolically suppose. Nothing personal humanity, but you do stink alot of the time!

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@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

I suggest waiting for the sun to come out for a few hours!

Might I suggest that things change their form and not their nature...

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@Fido,

You can but i dont know what we are talking about anymore! lol

That may not have ven been meant for me.

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@Pathfinder,

Of course not...Pathfinders have enough sense to stay out of mud holes; I hope...

I was on a job once that was nothing but mud; and one guy said: My Mother used to beat me for playing in the mud, and now some one is paying me do just that...

I did a few jobs at sewage treatment plants... Everybody does it; but it is sort of depressing psychologically to have to deal with ripe crap... Every once in a while I have to drive by one of the plants I worked on, and when the wind is wrong, it will about make you (or anyone) gag... Must be great for all the neighbors... It reminds me of what one of my co-workers used to say, That: **** is my bread and butter.... I think of that stuff now that I am collecting a pension... The crap of yesterday is today's bread and butter...I hope it holds out... I am too proud to beg and too lazy to steal...
Oh; did I get off track... I just hate to see people get mired in details when the truth seems obvious enough...

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

Biology isn't entirely reactive. There is a certain degree of physiological determinism at play which if nothing else constrains the repertoire of reactions to external events.

Aedes,

Is not it health itself, as in the absence of anything invasive, that might be termed deterministic, in that one would continue in health [with the acception of wear/aging] as an object would continue in motion in one direction without anything introduced to disrupt its course. I thought when we talked of this before you stated that yes indeed, that somewhere in the mix there is always something introduced to the organism that will cause this reaction/disease. Perhaps I misunderstood you previously. I take it you then do not believe that man is a reactionary organism, if so, please explain where this is not true. This really is not off topic, in that if meaning is god, we know that all meaning is biologically dependent.

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@Fido,

hah, Fido you crack me up!

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@Ola,

Wow Boagie,

your view of what a person is makes me feel like a clump of that stuff that Fido used to work in when he was a youngun'

Its depressing man!

Can I at least think of myself as the bread and butter aspect?

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@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

Wow Boagie,

your view of what a person is makes me feel like a clump of that stuff that Fido used to work in when he was a youngun'

Its depressing man!

Can I at least think of myself as the bread and butter aspect?

Pathfinder, Smile

How so? The truth does not necessarily have to please one.

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@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

hah, Fido you crack me up!

Thanks..........

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@Ola,

I dunno Boag,

Its just that this creation and our place in it seems so astounding and amazing when we actually look at all of the possibilities, but the way you describe it I can't help but feel that you are missing out on most of the specialness of it all.

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@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

I dunno Boag,

Its just that this creation and our place in it seems so astounding and amazing when we actually look at all of the possibilities, but the way you describe it I can't help but feel that you are missing out on most of the specialness of it all.

Pathfinder, Smile

I quite agree that the mystery of being is quite astounding, but to realize you do not have your being in isolation, that it is entirely relational is not such a nasty speculation, certainly evolutionary biology points to the plasticity of ones biology, all I am saying is that the principle can be expanded upon. There is just something about that plasticity, the presence of the physcial world as object, the mutual dependence of subject and object which tends to make me believe that there indeed is no such thing as human action, it is entirely reaction, many choices but nevertheless, those choices always involve reaction to the environment. As far as meaning goes, we know that the physical world is devoid of meaning in the absence of a subject, apparent reality is biologically dependent, so how could the concept of god not be the projection of said biology, read psyche.

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@boagie,

well at least I am glad you said "apparent reality"...lol

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@Fido,

Fido wrote:

This is one of those threads of how to find dirt in a mud puddle... All we get with life is meaning...Okay; then sure, God is meaning... Point your finger and what do you see but some particular meaning??? It is everywhere and everything... Surely, we have meaningful, and meaningless; but not one single thing can be thought of as without meaning... We even see nothing as having a certain meaning, abstractly; but what else is meaning, but an abstraction of the reality which we cannot conceive of without the medium of meaning???

Not everyone thinks that way Fido. For some strange reason, some people think that meaning is exactly that which they cannot ever find...and of course they don't know what they're looking for. It seems to me that if you are seeking something unknown forever without success, maybe it dosen't exist? ...very strange world this is

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@BrightNoon,

BrightNoon wrote:

Not everyone thinks that way Fido. For some strange reason, some people think that meaning is exactly that which they cannot ever find...and of course they don't know what they're looking for. It seems to me that if you are seeking something unknown forever without success, maybe it dosen't exist? ...very strange world this is

You are describing a psychological problem... Most people don't have time to consider meaning, but most seem to know that keeping body and soul together has meaning... Then consider all who will give up life out of belief, or ideology.... Is that not some strange illness... Like wise, consider all who will destroy the earth and all in it for life when it has never been shown to be permanent... Life is meaningful, the source of all meaning; but who ever presumes their life is more meaning than another misses the point... We are in this together... The goal of the game is to add value, to find life ****, and to make it into something corney... That's a joke... How about, to make it better...
If I can get back on track; if people find life is meaning they pursue that: not just life, but a better life...But those people who find wealth, or love, or power, or excitment meaningful, are inclined at some point to find all the meaning drained out of there pearls of great value... if you see life as meaning, you will never lose touch with your power to do good even while you suffer pain... Those people who neutralize themselves because their lives have no meaning are not looking hard... It could be that they just do not want to lift a finger to help others who cannot help themselves... You think of it... There is some one with a perfectly good body and no meaning killing themselves and some sick person with loads of meaning and no way to be helped... If I was a wheeling dealing sort of man I'd smell a deal to be made some where...

1 Reply

@boagie,

boagie;48956 wrote:

Aedes,

Is not it health itself, as in the absence of anything invasive, that might be termed deterministic, in that one would continue in health [with the acception of wear/aging] as an object would continue in motion in one direction without anything introduced to disrupt its course.

No, because there is a physiologic process of senescence, decline, aging, that happens at the genetic, cellular, and ultimately physiologic level. Apoptosis is probably the most famous example.

boagie wrote:

I thought when we talked of this before you stated that yes indeed, that somewhere in the mix there is always something introduced to the organism that will cause this reaction/disease.

Well, only inasmuch as an organism lives in the real world, but unless you consider one's genotype and dysfunctional gene products to be the outside world, there are indeed genetic diseases whose pathogenesis (the mechanism of disease) comes solely from the genetic error. Cancer, by the way, is one of these diseases in many cases.

boagie wrote:

I take it you then do not believe that man is a reactionary organism, if so, please explain where this is not true.

Not in the absolute. There are intrinsic biological characteristics that delimit any human. AND there is interaction with the real world.

This is VERY much part of my specialty, by the way (infectious diseases). You can never think about an infectious disease until you take into consideration both the microorganism AND the host features.

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@Aedes,

Aedes,

I appreciate the opportunity to pick your brain around these ideas, as to the aging process I did rather include that in my initial statement. This Apoptosis is rather marvelous, self-sacrafice at a molecular simply amazing. These genetic errors you spoke of, does anyone know what caused the error? Certainly the body as a community would react to disfunction, it would be interesting to know the cause of these disfunctions/mistakes.

"There are intrinsic biological characteristics that delimit any human. AND there is interaction with the real world." quote

Sorry not sure what you mean here by delimit any human, by intrinsic biological characteristics. Do you mean by intrinsic that it is natural and a healthy element? By delimit, do you mean limit size, body hair ect,,.Delimit does not sound like disease. I am toying with ideas here, but when you speak of the interactions of the organism with the world, is it the same as what occurs within the community of the body, indeed it has been stated that in the interactions/reactions of the body, that cause and effect are not really discernable, you know where I going don't you, in a complex system such a our biological community things in growth have arisen simultaneously, does not this kind of correlational state infer mutual reaction? Sorry if my questions seem simplistic or silly but I have absolutely no grounding in this stuff.

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@Fido,

Fido wrote:

You are describing a psychological problem... Most people don't have time to consider meaning, but most seem to know that keeping body and soul together has meaning... Then consider all who will give up life out of belief, or ideology.... Is that not some strange illness... Like wise, consider all who will destroy the earth and all in it for life when it has never been shown to be permanent... Life is meaningful, the source of all meaning; but who ever presumes their life is more meaning than another misses the point... We are in this together... The goal of the game is to add value, to find life ****, and to make it into something corney... That's a joke... How about, to make it better...
If I can get back on track; if people find life is meaning they pursue that: not just life, but a better life...But those people who find wealth, or love, or power, or excitment meaningful, are inclined at some point to find all the meaning drained out of there pearls of great value... if you see life as meaning, you will never lose touch with your power to do good even while you suffer pain... Those people who neutralize themselves because their lives have no meaning are not looking hard... It could be that they just do not want to lift a finger to help others who cannot help themselves... You think of it... There is some one with a perfectly good body and no meaning killing themselves and some sick person with loads of meaning and no way to be helped... If I was a wheeling dealing sort of man I'd smell a deal to be made some where...

Suprisingly Fido, we have simliar 'world-views,' but there are two things:

(1) Helping others who cannot help themselves does not inherently add to the meaning, that's a completely relative predilection; for an extreme example, think of a violent sadist, his meaning is in the opposite

(2) The people I was referring to, who seek for meaning everywhere, don't know what it is, and can't find it, are people who think that there is an external justification for life: which, if they are smart enough, they will not find. Usually, in my experience and from what I've read, these are religious people, not to imply that religion leads invariably to this condition though. If the religion is enjoyed as the activity that it is, rather than suffered as something with which to purchase an after-life, or something beyond the present life, then thats alright by me. Basically, I'm just talking about anyone who wants to deny the world, or claim that it is imperfect in relation to an 'ideal world' or a 'real world.'

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@boagie,

You know, I always listen with great amazement as people talk about things as though they are speaking in great depth and really getting to the nitty gritty of a matter, when in fact they are actually simply talking all around the real truth of what they are trying to dissect.

Here you are breaking down biological function to its genetic levels trying to come up with answers that appeal to your way of thinking, and yet when asked to go deeper to the chicken and the egg you will not do it.

However if you are going to go to the molecular level of biology you cannot do so without going all the way to the actual second that the life of this biological organism as you call it began.

You speak of the delimiting, you speak of the cellular degeneration, you speak of reaction, and every other thing regarding the function of the organism AFTER it has been endowed with that life giving force, yet you will not entertain where that spark of life came from in the first place that even started the engine.

Its like trying to study the dynamics of a running engine from the exterior of it, and not being able to figure out the actual internal combustion aspect of it because you dont know what causes the spark, and never bothering to look inside you continue to study the thing as though you are intensely aware of its every aspect.

I think its time to really get in there if you really want to know what makes the frog work Boagie. Maybe instead of trying to figure out why its dying, you should try to figure what brought it to life in the first place to begin all these reactions that you are talking about.

Take the dissected frog off of the table and lets look at a lifeless frog embryo and wait for it to be sparked to life and study that process. I am certain that anyone that works with cloning is always amazed at that instantaneous instilling of life that takes place when they do nothing other than an insemination with a dropper.

And I also think that many of them think that THEY are actually the ones that create an entire sheep with nothing more than the tip of a needle, how great they are. They should be careful where they poke that awesome power of theirs.

For that lifeless form on the biology dissection table life has absolutely no meaning whatsoever, and yet the split fraction of a second that it becomes endowed with life from some force that no biologist can understand or define, that frog's life suddenly has great meaning.

While it lives a biologist can study all of those reactions to stimuli and think they have it all figured out as long as nobody asks them the unanswerable question, but as soon as the frog is dead, they poke and prod at it to find out what killed it looking for a physical failure of some organ function, and overlook completely that for some reason that actual spark of life is also missing. Why is that? Why does an organism have to die just because something stops working? An embryo was alive without all of these developed organs. A cell lives without a brain or a liver as it begins to mulitply into a human. But for some reason when the human dies because of a stroke the biologist stops looking for that lost life at the brain.

When a car runs out of gas, the biologist would concur than that the essence of that car must have only been a gas tank?

Just my highly enlightened thought process, which is actually probably nothing more than a few electrons firing off here and there, of course nowhere near the fireworks display going off in your heads! lol :whistling:

Devastatingly Delighted,
Pathfinder

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meaning is God.

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