Why does God permit evil????

But Christ is an illusion , Jesus the man did not mirror the pagan gods by sacrifice.

Perhaps to know what you have you must first know what it is to not have it? You can't know love if you have never had it. Even though this accounts for why it would happen it still cancels it out after the fact because eventually you will forget. Such as, a person in love does not know they are until after something occurs, like a minor fluctuation in it or a complete loss of it. While it is happening there is really no analytical thinking that knows it is experiencing love. It comes after.

People like to argue that they know it during but it actually doesn't work that way. Similar to fear, people don't deduce that, "Now I am afraid." No as soon as they reflect upon it their fear subsides usually giving them a moment of self reflection it is replaced temporarily some times. It is a method that is used to over come some intense emotional situations. If it didn't work like this then you would never be able to analyze the emotional state. Which is the argument against for ever endless bliss, would lose it's meaning after about ten minutes give or take.

I'm not sure what you expect me to say as if the reason is spelled out in black in white and I'm just keeping it a secret. I could give dozens of reasons none of which may be the ACTUAL reason. What can be safely asserted(IMO) is A reason does exist or else that would be the way it is. What more can I say? I honestly don't need to know the actual reason, only prove that such a reason can exist. And I believe I've satisfied that requirement. In the same way I may have no clue why the sky is blue but I can guarantee a reason does exist or else the sky would indeed not be blue.

I believe this is the arena that God set forth for us to get to know Him. And this arena allotted God the opportunity for Him to exemplify His love for us most purely. By sacrificing Himself for us. What greater expression of love could there be?

I've heard this before. This argument says that you can't know what it's like to have something unless you know what it's like not to have it. This doesn't measure up logically. Could I not know my mothers love and care as a child unless I've felt her apathy and cruelty first?

With all due respect this measures up to diversion tactics. If you can't make a simple logical distinction between two realms of existence and you can't give an honest answer to a simple question then we have nothing more to discuss. I sincerely enjoyed discussing this with you, though.

I've heard this before. This argument says that you can't know what it's like to have something unless you know what it's like not to have it. This doesn't measure up logically. Could I not know my mothers love and care as a child unless I've felt her apathy and cruelty first?

If you don?t NEED something then you don?t miss it...
...Witch by its turn means that there must be emotionally two states of being...One in witch you lack something, and another in witch you obtain it and are satisfied...this said and given, only brings me to the conclusion that what doesn't measure up logically, is your opinion on this issue...

?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Patterns can raise from apparent Chaos and there?s studies on it...

I take the best of both worlds...Why cannot you assume that Information is Order in this Universe and for this Universe alone...

If you can't make a simple logical distinction between two realms of existence...

What if they were awarded with not heaven? Then your argument makes it worse and you fail to justify it.

What wake up call? They were at least a live. You don't need to kill thousands to improve things. They eventually will improve over time.

This is a very dangerous thought.

There was no wake up call required here, it is just your opinion that they needed help. I don't think they needed any help. Sure the country was poor, probably due to corruption in the political atmosphere.

You don't need a disaster to fix that, in fact the country will be worse off far longer from this than it would be without it.

You are saying you only care after there is suffering? Seriously? Well that is a little um messed up don't you think?

...since he got her killed...

Remarkably none of the children were killed. What are the odds?

OK Fil, I've determined where my confusion to your comments is stemming from. And it's a tangled web, so be patient as I try to unravel this.



I completely agree. Patterns can raise from Chaos. But what do you mean by "apparent" Chaos? I know what you mean? you mean that it's really Order disguised as Chaos or misunderstood as Chaos... right? And so that's why you claim "There?s no TRUE CHAOS anywhere, witch is the bottom line of what you propose in your ignorance..."

No offense, but careful with that word "ignorance". You may find it self reflective.

Patterns can and do arise from Chaos. Snowflakes, tornadoes, particle waves, erosion, pulsars? all patterns from Chaos. But it really is Chaos Fil? nothing "apparent" about it. There is no order to it whatsoever.

You seem to conflate Patterns with Information. That is incorrect. I got a clue to your confusion from another comment you made to me on the other thread about "What is God", where you replied to me?



Well, I do accept that Information is Order. But I don't "assume" that it's "for this Universe alone".

Patterns are not Information. Patterns are not a source of Information either. Mind is the only source of Information there is.

Yes, you're trying to conflate "the best of both worlds". That is incorrect. There is a huge chasm between the world of Patterns from Chaos and the world of Information from Mind. Information does not arise from Chaos. Thus, Information is not for this Universe alone.

So when you say, "the best of both worlds", you admit there are "two" worlds, or realms as I call them? You referred to them as "dimension" or "sort of an extra Axis"? Whatever, I don't care what you call them. But we both agree there are "two".

Part of the problem is that you're really not taking "the best of both worlds". Because you're trying to make them both fit into the Material Realm, forcing them to be one world. That's a conflation. If you agree there are "both worlds", then allow them to be "both worlds" and please don't insist they become "one world" to make it fit your argument.

Two Realms exist. The Material Realm, and the Immaterial Realm. Please don't try to force the Immaterial Realm to be a Material Realm. The Material Realm consists of energy and matter. It is limited to the cause/reaction of Chaos. The Immaterial Realm consists of Information. It is limited to the thought/action of Mind. Cause/Reaction is not the same as Thought/Action.

But there is a bridge between the two Realms of the Material and Immaterial. That bridge is called Code? (Language). Code is the bridge that allows the Immaterial Thoughts from a Mind to be expressed into the Material Realm of Chaos.

Code is the only mechanism that can determine the presence of Information. But, Code and Information are not the same things either. Code is a bridge that allows access to the Immaterial Information. Code is the physical medium. Information is the non-physical message. The medium is never the message. The medium only refers to the message.

The only similarity between Codes and Patterns is that they are both Material Objects. But Patterns arise from Chaos. Codes arise from codifying Information from a Mind.

No Code = No Information. The mute Physical Universe has never expressed a Code. Thus the Physical Universe has never expressed Information of any kind.

Information is immaterial (refer to Weiner). And that is the conceptual leap that most hard materialists have trouble with. That's why Weiner says, "Any materialism that does not allow for this cannot survive in the present"?

Information arises from Describing the Universe with Codified Information. Information is Created? created via the authoring from Mind. That's how Order is born. Humans describe things and put them in Order. But the Cosmos has no Order of its own. The Cosmos has no Code, and no Mind to author Code with.

Thinking otherwise gives credibility to talking trees, whispering streams, and burning bushes that give instructions to birth a violent nation. I call that "Apparent Information"... in honor of Dawkins coining the term "Apparent Design".

---------- Post added 02-07-2010 at 05:38 AM ----------



The Material Realm vs the Immaterial Realm.

Material Realm consists of Cause/Reaction of Chaos (energy and matter)

Immaterial Realm consists of Thought/Action of Mind (Information)

Cause/Reaction is not the same as Thought/Action.

"Information is Information. Not energy and not matter. Any materialism that does not allow for this cannot survive in the present"
Norbert Weiner, Cybernetics p147

I see my question is still avoided, if you have never experienced the good how can you measure the two? If you have only experience the good what purpose does those who suffer serve you?

(...Stochastic probability does n?t match with ACTION, it (action), must be NECESSARY...)

But Jesus the man did not mirror the pagan gods by sacrifice.

Then let's try and simplify. Probability doesn't match with Action... ok, common ground. So you accept that Cause/Reaction is not the same as Thought/Action? One requires Chaos, the other requires Mind? Any problems with this?

So you don't see a difference between Cause/Reaction and Thought/Action...? Do I read you correctly?

Hi, thanks for your careful reply !

...Aldo I?m not much organized in my answers I will try to tell you Why I?m not so Naive on this as you might think...there are good reasons.

1 - Order encompassing every aspect (variable) of Reality is of utmost importance for Communication purposes...(so there must be not true Chaos, but context instead...what is out of context for a purpose must be in context for another..."noise" is a superposition of contexts..)
...I think I Know, basically what Entropy is from the standard point of view, it just happens that it don?t feats NECESSITY...(everything must be necessary or causal...)(I?m certain you get me on this...specially if you believe in God...)

2 - Two Realms with two different Natures in my perspective would be transcendent to each other...thus not able to communicate by language...

3 - Even if there were two worlds in contact they would harmonize\accommodate each other giving rise to a bigger larger world...(contamination)

4 - My perspective on this is not only Holistic, but it is in constant search for simplicity, its a Monist perspective...it demands ONE True Nature...Conflict and error must be dialectically eradicated...(explained)
There must be no inconsistencies...

5 - I don?t defend that this world is material in the first place...I don?t even know what that means...to my view, everybody begs the question on this...

(continues) but you can answer already to this first block...

Best Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE


---------- Post added 02-07-2010 at 08:35 AM ----------

...I would like to ad that Hard Causality is a true Necessary demand, one that nobody seems to be taking seriously for a long time now...that AMAZES PUZZLES and DAZZLE`S me everyday...maybe I?m really stupid and just can?t see it...

(...Stochastic probability does n?t match with ACTION, it (action), must be NECESSARY...)

---------- Post added 02-07-2010 at 09:00 AM ----------



...just look at what your saying..."NEVER" or "ONLY" "experienced the good"...your begging the question there with a very linear approach...give me a break...this is not even a respectful conversation...

Good for me means mathematically right, caused and Necessary...not, linear...Consequently, Ethically right also...aldo, very, very hard to explain, I give you that...in this, I figure that some Law?s cancel or suspend others by a degree of Necessity...

( ...now, going back a bit, for instance, even when you have an headache, your hands or feat are ok, or something is ok, right? thus you can allays compare...don?t you see ? To be aware and conscious, you have to compare !!! ...the more aware of the extremes, the bigger the amplitude, as also proportionally bigger, your level of Conscience...very easy to get...if your willing to lesson...)

What in hells name are you on about ? do you think wrapping it up in certain malign way it will defuse the debate and making it easier for you to avoid answering? Your not alone in thinking that by altering the perspective of the debate I'm going to go away and not insist on you of faiths answer the question, this thread begs you to. You know the question its not linear or any other such reason you can give for not answering. Whose not showing respect here? is that the next proposed excuse for avoidance?

Thought emerges from the NEED of action...awareness implies this...so Thought is Caused and Causal...I?m looking for something more abstract !...

...Thought MUST BE allays relative ! (to a perspective) (It can?t be Holistic...)

...LAW is what remains intact, not Thought...same is to say CODE !

(...and that?s why I say GOD "sleeps"...)(...only the "son" is aware not the "Father"...the "Father" therefore NEEDS the "Son" through the "Holly Spirit"/Flux...)

...To the best of my ability I think I give a crystal clear answer...but if I failed to do so on your perspective, I apologise for my incapacity to communicate...
( ...and for those who are in doubt go back in the Thread and read carefully my words...)

If you don?t NEED something then you don?t miss it...
...Witch by its turn means that there must be emotionally two states of being...One in witch you lack something, and another in witch you obtain it and are satisfied...this said and given, only brings me to the conclusion that what doesn't measure up logically, is your opinion on this issue...

You're really loosing me here. Thought is Caused? Caused by a NEED for Action? So we are puppets?

How does "awareness" imply?

How will this explain a Thought about another Thought? I'm am now Thinking about the way I used to Think about Motorcycles. What was the NEED that Caused me to Think this Thought?

Can't say I disagree. But this doesn't mean that I must think about something. Being aware of something does not force me to think about it. But I adhere to common science and philosophy of what thought actually is. Thought is a description of phenomenon. We must codify our experiential awareness into a description. We do this with code. That's why cognition testing is primarily language based.

If I burn my finger (cause) and pull away quickly in pain (reaction)... That's just cause and reaction to stimuli. No thinking has occurred here.

But when I describe the experience, even if only within my mind (ouch!), that's when thought occurs. The more I describe my experience, the more thinking I do about it. I can think about it a lot and describe the oven temp, the creek of the door, the smell of the pizza... all continued thinking about my burned finger... because of description.

But nothing required me to describe and think about my burned finger. I could have left it at cause/reaction only and never desired to express thought/action whatsoever.

And I can think without a cause present. A simple desire to write a poem is not an external cause... it's an internal thought... without any cause needed.

How can a LAW even exist without a Thought expressed upon a Code to bring it into existence?

I don't get it.

Appreciation and knowing are two different things. Answer this simple question for me. Could I not know the love and care of my mother without first experiencing her apathy and cruelty?

What Code did you read this LAW upon?