Why does God permit evil????

I think it is fair that in this thread we are debating about the Christian and Hebrew God YAHWEH

So let me dive in here with a few ideas that might warrant dialog

Why would God create an imperfect, temporary universe only to replace it later with a perfect one? Why wouldn't God have created a perfect universe in the first place?

This is a good question, but shows a lack of understanding of the biblical reason of why God created the universe.

One can find the reason for the creation of the universe in the first few chapters of the Bible. God created humans in order to have a personal relationship with them, which He had with Adam and Eve before they sinned (Genesis 2).

Jesus said that the first and foremost commandment was to "Love the Lord your God A personal relationship, characterized by the possibility of love, is only possible if created beings are given free will. If God had created the universe with no possibility of evil or sin, then the created beings would have had no free will, and, as such, would essentially be programmed computers.

Such beings would be incapable of love, since love involves making a choice - which requires the ability to choose not to love.

For example, we could program our computer to say "I love you" when it starts up. Does this mean that the computer really loves me? Of course not! Likewise, God could have programmed humans to say that they loved Him, without the possibility of rejecting Him or performing evil deeds.

However, these programmed beings would exhibit about as much true love as my computer - not a very satisfying relationship. Therefore, God created the universe for the express purpose of allowing free will spiritual beings the opportunity to have fellowship with Him (and likewise, reject Him).

Xris, do you want the children in Africa to love you? Do you love them?

I think it is fair that in this thread we are debating about the Christian and Hebrew God YAHWEH

So let me dive in here with a few ideas that might warrant dialog

Why would God create an imperfect, temporary universe only to replace it later with a perfect one? Why wouldn't God have created a perfect universe in the first place?

This is a good question, but shows a lack of understanding of the biblical reason of why God created the universe.

One can find the reason for the creation of the universe in the first few chapters of the Bible. God created humans in order to have a personal relationship with them, which He had with Adam and Eve before they sinned (Genesis 2).

Jesus said that the first and foremost commandment was to "Love the Lord your God A personal relationship, characterized by the possibility of love, is only possible if created beings are given free will. If God had created the universe with no possibility of evil or sin, then the created beings would have had no free will, and, as such, would essentially be programmed computers.

Such beings would be incapable of love, since love involves making a choice - which requires the ability to choose not to love.

For example, we could program our computer to say "I love you" when it starts up. Does this mean that the computer really loves me? Of course not! Likewise, God could have programmed humans to say that they loved Him, without the possibility of rejecting Him or performing evil deeds.

However, these programmed beings would exhibit about as much true love as my computer - not a very satisfying relationship. Therefore, God created the universe for the express purpose of allowing free will spiritual beings the opportunity to have fellowship with Him (and likewise, reject Him).

My love is not the question, diverting the attention from god to me is futile. I'm not up to be examined as a benevolent god.

You seem to forget intentionally how much genetics and chemistry have to do with Love...

Oh yes you are. You want to hold a God to your standards and make him play the game the way you insist. So lay out the rules of how you yourself demonstrate love to the poor starving children in Africa. Then we'll have a standard to hold God accountable to.

That's not Love. You've explained attraction and community cooperation. But how does that account for the Love expressed through selfless sacrifice?

Selfless sacrifice flies in the face of classic Darwinian evolution. Selfless sacrifice is a move in the complete opposite direction of survival of the fittest. Selfless sacrifice is not explainable by mere chemical reactions alone.

Yes, that's exactly what I propose. The entire physical Universe consists of Chaos, or better yet, Entropy. Tell me, why are you claiming differently. I really want to understand your position.

And did I read you correctly... are you equating God and Universe as synonymous? I don't want to misread you.

We are not debating my moral fortitude or yours.

Sometimes I wonder. At least for myself anyway. I see no way out of it. If as you say (the Human collective is god), we are all accountable to "loving" the starving children. But there's another concern, and it disturbs me to my core...

The example of Haiti. Already the poorest nation on earth. Those people needed our help just as much before the earthquake as after. If, as I say, that God knows their dying will bring them to the comfort of Heaven, then he has insider knowledge that their deaths are really not as horrible as we may consider them. Stick with me here, it's difficult to explain this without seeming negligent...

So if God "knows" that they will be better off in the short run, perhaps the earthquake in Haiti (if indeed caused or permitted by God) perhaps it is actually a wake up call to us who are not expressing care for the Haitian plight even before the earthquake tragedy. Could this be a wake up call? A call to arms so to speak? An alarm crying louder than the previous alarm that we typically refused to acknowledge before the earthquake?

If we do not answer to their suffering before the quake, could this disaster be our opportunity to answer their suffering after the quake? You must admit that the Haitian plight has received vastly more attention now that the entire world is forced to face it.

And yet still, I have not sent them a single dime. What will I answer to God when he asks me what I did with my life on earth? What reason may I give him to enter into his perfect Heaven? What "Love" will I contribute?

Yes you read me quite well...

Sometimes I wonder. At least for myself anyway. I see no way out of it. If as you say (the Human collective is god), we are all accountable to "loving" the starving children. But there's another concern, and it disturbs me to my core...

The example of Haiti. Already the poorest nation on earth. Those people needed our help just as much before the earthquake as after. If, as I say, that God knows their dying will bring them to the comfort of Heaven, then he has insider knowledge that their deaths are really not as horrible as we may consider them. Stick with me here, it's difficult to explain this without seeming negligent...

So if God "knows" that they will be better off in the short run, perhaps the earthquake in Haiti (if indeed caused or permitted by God) perhaps it is actually a wake up call to us who are not expressing care for the Haitian plight even before the earthquake tragedy. Could this be a wake up call? A call to arms so to speak? An alarm crying louder than the previous alarm that we typically refused to acknowledge before the earthquake?

If we do not answer to their suffering before the quake, could this disaster be our opportunity to answer their suffering after the quake? A second opportunity to express Our Love? You must admit that the Haitian plight has received vastly more attention now that the entire world is forced to face it.

And yet still, I have not sent them a single dime. What will I answer to God when he asks me what I did with my life on earth? What reason may I give him to enter into his perfect Heaven? What "Love" will I contribute?

The example of Haiti. Already the poorest nation on earth. Those people needed our help just as much before the earthquake as after. If, as I say, that God knows their dying will bring them to the comfort of Heaven, then he has insider knowledge that their deaths are really not as horrible as we may consider them.

So if God "knows" that they will be better off in the short run, perhaps the earthquake in Haiti (if indeed caused or permitted by God) perhaps it is actually a wake up call to us who are not expressing care for the Haitian plight even before the earthquake tragedy. Could this be a wake up call?

If we do not answer to their suffering before the quake, could this disaster be our opportunity to answer their suffering after the quake? A second opportunity to express Our Love?

And yet still, I have not sent them a single dime. What will I answer to God when he asks me what I did with my life on earth? What reason may I give him to enter into his perfect Heaven? What "Love" will I contribute?

I'm not sure. I would have to do more research. One thing I think I can safely assert is that heaven for us cannot exist without earth.

If you won't even grant the possibility of something then I don't see the point continuing the debate. Obviously I wouldn't be arguing for something if it wasn't logical. I'm arguing from the standpoint of logically possible. Now if you want to argue from the standpoint of logically probable that's a different issue. I grant what you say is possible, however you seem to refuse to grant that what I say is even remotely possible. So I'm essentially just wasting proverbial my breath.

The point is this: we have to be on earth before we get to heaven only because your god made it that way. Why didn't he just create his children in heaven?

Considering your last question could you provide an answer ?

Perhaps to know what you have you must first know what it is to not have it? You can't know love if you have never had it. Even though this accounts for why it would happen it still cancels it out after the fact because eventually you will forget. Such as, a person in love does not know they are until after something occurs, like a minor fluctuation in it or a complete loss of it. While it is happening there is really no analytical thinking that knows it is experiencing love. It comes after.

People like to argue that they know it during but it actually doesn't work that way. Similar to fear, people don't deduce that, "Now I am afraid." No as soon as they reflect upon it their fear subsides usually giving them a moment of self reflection it is replaced temporarily some times. It is a method that is used to over come some intense emotional situations. If it didn't work like this then you would never be able to analyze the emotional state. Which is the argument against for ever endless bliss, would lose it's meaning after about ten minutes give or take.

The point is this: we have to be on earth before we get to heaven only because your god made it that way. Why didn't he just create his children in heaven?

I'm not sure what you expect me to say as if the reason is spelled out in black in white and I'm just keeping it a secret. I could give dozens of reasons none of which may be the ACTUAL reason. What can be safely asserted(IMO) is A reason does exist or else that would be the way it is. What more can I say? I honestly don't need to know the actual reason, only prove that such a reason can exist. And I believe I've satisfied that requirement. In the same way I may have no clue why the sky is blue but I can guarantee a reason does exist or else the sky would indeed not be blue.

I believe this is the arena that God set forth for us to get to know Him. And this arena allotted God the opportunity for Him to exemplify His love for us most purely. By sacrificing Himself for us. What greater expression of love could there be?