Why does God permit evil????

@Justin,

Justin;101720 wrote:

Not necessarily. However, disasters like this occur as natures way of keeping balance. Man has tried to dominate and control nature through science etc., rather than work with nature and/or God in balance and harmony.

I believe we inadvertently bring about many of the natural disasters by demonstrating our own imbalance. Imbalance in human relations, chemical imbalances, nuclear energies, etc. etc.

By, "natural disasters" I mean what insurance companies call, "acts of God". What human beings have nothing to do with causing. I listed some. Hurricanes, or fires, and so on. I don't know what you mean by "imbalance", but there are natural disasters that human beings had nothing to do with causing. So, what about them? Are they, quite literally, acts of God? And if so, how are they to be excused?

0 Replies

@xris,

xris;101877 wrote:

We may be surprised one day.

Maybe so, but until then, in the vein of practical certainty, I posit that such beings do not exist.

0 Replies

@xris,

xris;101829 wrote:

This post avoids the truth that god of scriptures describes him as benevolent but admits it goes beyond mans understanding. Now either he is benevolent , as scriptures describe him or he is not known. If he is not known he is not the god of scriptures.

No sir.

The scripture describes God as benevolent and also mentions that God is transcendent. It is possible to do both. Again, finger and moon. Which I've explained many times, in many threads, to which you always give the same objections.

0 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

God doesn't have to be benevolent, many people picture an amoral god. If there is a such thing as good and evil, it's a product of humanity rather than one of god.

The Bible, Quran, Torah, and other religious books aren't objective, so why assume "because x is written in the bible, and I perceive it this way, then that's what it means." Any attempts at finding cryptograms and secrets to what the bible really means are a Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

1 Reply

@Leonard,

Leonard;101900 wrote:

God doesn't have to be benevolent, many people picture an amoral god. If there is a such thing as good and evil, it's a product of humanity rather than one of god.

The Bible, Quran, Torah, and other religious books aren't objective, so why assume "because x is written in the bible, and I perceive it this way, then that's what it means." Any attempts at finding cryptograms and secrets to what the bible really means are a Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

That isn't the traditional Western conception of God. And all we can do is give our own (informed) interpretation.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

Right, the traditional western conception of God is transcendent Being beyond the grasp of limited human language, a God who is humbly described in human language in order to hint at His true nature, which is ultimately indescribably in words.

But many here cannot seem to grasp any of that....

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;101904 wrote:

Right, the traditional western conception of God is transcendent Being beyond the grasp of limited human language, a God who is humbly described in human language in order to hint at His true nature, which is ultimately indescribably in words.

But many here cannot seem to grasp any of that....

So, does that mean that God is good or not? And if He is not, then why is he praised?

0 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

Those who think natural disasters and death are the most terrible things, have not considered the notion of life after death.

God is the Supreme Storyteller. Have you ever read a story which consisted of perfectly happy people playing harps all day? Would you be enthralled by such a story?

Think of the most riveting and absorbing stories : they always have terrible antagonists.

Churchill said "This was their finest hour"
So Hitler brought about Britain's finest hour?

There are few modern stories that can be as compelling as a ww2 drama.

The nastier the devil ..... the sweeter the victory.
There is no Good, without evil,
and if all evil was the result of other evil, then no evil could ever have existed in the first place - so although God's retribution is absolute - sometimes he just lets bad things happen.

It thickens the plot you see.
Try and write a story.. and see how far you get without an antagonist...

1 Reply

@Poseidon,

Poseidon;101911 wrote:

Those who think natural disasters and death are the most terrible things, have not considered the notion of life after death.

God is the Supreme Storyteller. Have you ever read a story which consisted of perfectly happy people playing harps all day? Would you be enthralled by such a story?

Think of the most riveting and absorbing stories : they always have terrible antagonists.

Churchill said "This was their finest hour"
So Hitler brought about Britain's finest hour?

There are few modern stories that can be as compelling as a ww2 drama.

The nastier the devil ..... the sweeter the victory.
There is no Good, without evil,
and if all evil was the result of other evil, then no evil could ever have existed in the first place - so although God's retribution is absolute - sometimes he just lets bad things happen.

It thickens the plot you see.
Try and write a story.. and see how far you get without an antagonist...

It is in the struggle that there is purpose and significance.
How could it be otherwise in a world which is to have meaning?
A world without risk is a world without reward.

0 Replies

@xris,

xris;101877 wrote:

We can only judge the value of any god that believers describe. We may be surprised one day.

What believers describe isn't necessarily justified true belief

---------- Post added 11-04-2009 at 11:05 PM ----------

Poseidon;101911 wrote:

.
The nastier the devil ..... the sweeter the victory.
There is no Good, without evil,
and if all evil was the result of other evil, then no evil could ever have existed in the first place - so although God's retribution is absolute - sometimes he just lets bad things happen.

To claim that an evil event like the holocaust was "let happen" to bring about a higher order good sounds just plain sadistic to me. It only raises the question: what is the upper limit on the evil permitted?

Further, if God is omnipotent, couldn't God think of a way to allow second order goods without first order evils?

Think of a parent who beat their child (ist order evil) in order to feel love (2nd order good). Would you condone such behavior? Is such behavior even necessary?

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Justin and All

Is man the only entity in existence capable of evil?

2 Replies

@stew phil,

[QUOTE=stew;101950] To claim that an evil event like the holocaust was "let happen" to bring about a higher order good sounds just plain sadistic to me. It only raises the question: what is the upper limit on the evil permitted? [/QUOTE] It is hard to conceive how one could construct a meaningful world (as opposed to a universe of slaves or puppets) with true freedom, true creativity and true relationships where evil is not a possibility. The universe and god may be co creative. God may be powerful but not all powerful. God may struggle for and suffer with his creation. Anyway the possible conceptions of the divine are not limited to the traditional notions of an eternal all powerful all knowing transcendent "being".

[QUOTE=stew;101950] Further, if God is omnipotent, couldn't God think of a way to allow second order goods without first order evils? [/QUOTE] One could consider the possibility that god is not omnipotent. Powerful enough and influential enough to bring order from chaos and create possibilities but not omnipotent. For example, the god of process theology who is persuasive but not coercive or a god who persistently, patiently, persuasively and lovingly struggles to bring forth maximum value against the forces of chaos and disorder. Perhaps a divine who works through nature and natural law and not a supernatural "being". Or a divine who is truly in relationship to the world and who takes in the experience (both joy and suffering) of the world. Again there are alternative visions of the divine where the "problem of evil" is really a misunderstanding of the nature of the divine. See "Omnipotence and other theological mistakes" by Charles Hartshorne.

The acuteness of the "problem of evil" both natural and moral is a function of ones understanding of the nature of the divine. The problem is most severe when one conceives of the divine as some form of universal tyrant or ruler who can intervene at will in the affairs of the world. It is not (aint) necessarily so.

0 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

Here is my take on this question.

If you read the bible, you will notice a trend. God tends to get involved in just about everything. He picks and chooses what he wants and supports those who will fulfill that goal. Very few Christians seem to have any problem with that. So what that god "orders" or "directs" or what ever you want to name it, the death of thousands for really doing nothing other than living their lives.

So the rebuttal argument is that god doesn't stand for evil or sin so he steps in and corrects the matter. But why don't we see this in reality? We only read about it but never actually see it. Let alone the few who were able to question or test god before going through with their murder spree genocide.

I think a much more realistic explanation is that there is no god. That is why the world has mean and vicious people in it. Some get away with doing lots of harm to people. Also you really expect a person who has no empathy for another would care where they ended up if there is a hell? Think about it. People don't ever stop to think before they harm someone, they just do it.

The math and the statistics for a universe without a creator is exactly what we currently see in our society. You can write it off and say god just doesn't intervene but that is not consistent with the content of the bible. Why would he be so quick to get into everyone's business in a book but no-a-days he turns a blind eye?

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple;101960 wrote:

Here is my take on this question.

If you read the bible, you will notice a trend. God tends to get involved in just about everything. He picks and chooses what he wants and supports those who will fulfill that goal. Very few Christians seem to have any problem with that. So what that god "orders" or "directs" or what ever you want to name it, the death of thousands for really doing nothing other than living their lives.

So the rebuttal argument is that god doesn't stand for evil or sin so he steps in and corrects the matter. But why don't we see this in reality? We only read about it but never actually see it. Let alone the few who were able to question or test god before going through with their murder spree genocide.

I think a much more realistic explanation is that there is no god. That is why the world has mean and vicious people in it. Some get away with doing lots of harm to people. Also you really expect a person who has no empathy for another would care where they ended up if there is a hell? Think about it. People don't ever stop to think before they harm someone, they just do it.

The math and the statistics for a universe without a creator is exactly what we currently see in our society. You can write it off and say god just doesn't intervene but that is not consistent with the content of the bible. Why would he be so quick to get into everyone's business in a book but no-a-days he turns a blind eye?

Maybe you are correct but god could be experimenting with life and us on the earth much like a person does with an ant farm

Maybe it is not god that is setting rules but a beings billions of years more advanced than we are, which for all purposes we would not be able to separate from god. Maybe they are cruel and evil and like to see us squirm

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;101961 wrote:

Maybe you are correct but god could be experimenting with life and us on the earth much like a person does with an ant farm

I love it that you said that Alan. I have used the analogy of an ant farm to point out how childish god would be if he actually existed.

So he has this ant farm and there are two holes he pre dug for them. One hole he says they are allowed to go into, where as the other hole they are never allowed into even though it is there. Not sure why he would make two holes and expect only one to be used. Anyways, eventually the ants start exploring the other hole and in gods angry wrath turns the garden hose onto the ant farm drowning them all.

Nice experiment. Even humans have the ethics of not testing on other humans. So wouldn't god be less ethical than humans if he were using humans as test subjects?

Alan McDougall;101961 wrote:

Maybe it is not god that is setting rules but a beings billions of years more advanced than we are, which for all purposes we would not be able to separate from god. Maybe they are cruel and evil and like to see us squirm

Perhaps. But also we have these subtle little things about ourselves that pick and chose who we respect and who we don't care about. Some people are good about being empathetic with people they have never met, where as others would rob their best friend blind if they had a big enough truck to take it all in one load. My point is, the values in which you were taught at a certain age can drastically effect how you view, treat and interact with others. Even a really evil person might do something nice from time to time. But I bet it is only for someone they find worthy enough. The same could go for a really good person. They might do something really mean to people secretly for what ever reason. It's all about how you want to look at it.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

If you could imagine a creator he might be a benign creative force that proposes creation but realises the consequences. It could be US bored with eternity, searching for purpose inventing this existance to examine and experience life. We could be in a adventure park of our own design. I just wish we could get bored with this and move on.

Lets admit it the faithful have no answer to this problem. Scriptures tell us one thing, reality informs us, he does not exist, there is no benevolent god.

0 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

[QUOTE=xris;101963] If you could imagine a creator he might be a benign creative force that proposes creation but realizes the consequences. It could be US bored with eternity, searching for purpose inventing this existence to examine and experience life. We could be in a adventure park of our own design. I just wish we could get bored with this and move on.[/quote]

Just curious xris, what is it, you think, that leads you to believe that is not occurring now? What an ingenious thing death is when you think about it. That is precisely why we die; we get bored, worn out, lifeless, inert, immobile, stuck. Who, pray tell, could tolerate that for an eternity. Better still, who would want to.

You know, perhaps it would be a different matter if we weren't convinced we need so much, so quick. If you took it easy. If we could only afford to do that, what difference would that make? I think.....a lot.

Just how long is it the body is designed to last considering all the body goes through at this stage of our evolvement? The body dies for either a lack or too much; both will make you bored to death. One of loneliness and one of for lack of interest for nothing will satisfy you if you have the means to have anything you want. Xris, I am using "you" in a broad since and don't mean you personally.

Too much, too little and just right. Do we know what "just right" is? I think............not yet, but we are getting there and we will.........eventually. Is it evil that is keeping us from that? First to know that, we need to establish what evil is. One man's evil is another's good fortune, is it not.

Someone sells you something for many times over what it is actually worth and you find out about it. What an evil SOB, he was. Not from his view point. You just made his day and his good fortune..............at your expense. This is just one example, there are millions of such scenarios taking place just like this, this instant.

Rather than "feeding each" other, we are feeding off each other like cannibals, when you think about it. We are eating each other up. If we slow down, we quell those voracious appetites. Take me for instance.

I have offered a bit more about me than most do and it is no secret about my weight problem. Yes, I had a big appetite. Man, am I thankful, I can, now, say "had". Whew!!! Ha!

I did feed off people, but not so much as they would notice it. Of course I also used food, too. We will balance ourselves out and there are many representations of that, mentally, spiritually and physically and we will do that whether we want to or not. It's part of he "system" and we truly have no control in the matter, regardless of how much we think we do. That's just the way it is. Yes, you might think differently and that's ok. No one is in "perfect balance" and I think that is what life is all about; reaching that balance and "just right". I am getting there and so will you when we are not forced or personally take on more than we can handle or deal with. Will it cost us our lives, in the meantime. Yep! We don't have any control over that either. It's part of the system, as I said, an ingenious part. One we will all be grateful for.....................someday.

Is it god's fault? Again, yep! He did it. Was it malicious? Nope! We just don't understand it all, that's all. As I have often noted we are so very young and going through growing pains and everything is not as it "appears" to be, simply because we "don't" know...............it all.

[QUOTE=xris;101963] Lets admit it the faithful have no answer to this problem. Scriptures tell us one thing, reality informs us, he does not exist, there is no benevolent god.[/quote]
From your viewpoint and the experiences that have occurred in your life, that can very well be an accurate statement, but please do not assume all think as you; for I promise you, none do. But still we will take little bites of you and all you may offer and we can learn from that. What matters is not to be an offense to you for no one is perfect as they too have more weight than they can carry alone. We will work it out. That is what we are here for and we will. Like I said, it is out of our control, we will do it whether we like it or not. That's just the way it is. Now there! Ha! :whistling:

William

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;101956 wrote:

Justin and All

Is man the only entity in existence capable of evil?

No. Disease, Earthquakes, and so on, are capable of causing great evil.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;101973 wrote:

No. Disease, Earthquakes, and so on, are capable of causing great evil.

If an earthquake killed someone, I wouldn't call that evil. Tragic, yes, but not evil.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;101974 wrote:

If an earthquake killed someone, I wouldn't call that evil. Tragic, yes, but not evil.

Earthquakes and other natural disasters (disease) cause an immense amount of innocent suffering in the world (and we are not even thinking of what happens to animals).

3 Replies

Why does God permit evil????

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know