@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;125806 wrote:That, however, does not explain why the child died alone in the first place. Why not just put people in heaven to begin with, instead of torturing them on earth first? Evidently, God is a sadist, who creates beings in order to torture them.
Of course, the easiest supposition is simply that there is no god, and then we have no "mystery" why suffering occurs.
Hue-man and I discussed this "problem of heaven" for several pages see between posts #1133 to #1157
just to highlight some noteworthy responses that were made see these:
yes I believe in heaven, but I do not believe that we can consider heaven in isolation from the earthly decision that led to eternal life. We had free will on earth, and God simply permanently cemented our free-willed choice. Love still exists in heaven because God affirms the free-willed decision to follow God while on earth.
yes I believe heaven is a better place but cannot be considered in isolation from the here and now....One cannot have heaven without first passing through earth. It's like saying isn't being 21 better than being 14? One cannot get to 21 without going through 14. And indeed 21 is only as good BECAUSE of what preceded it
I just explained this. They cannot be considered in isolation from one another. If they could you would be absolutely correct, I grant this.
No, that does not follow. Heaven is the culmination of the our earthly experience. In the same way that it is logically impossible for 2 to come before 1 whether or not 2 is of greater value or not, it is logically impossible to get to heaven before earth. If you want to be created in heaven you must first pass through earth. It is logically impossible to skip the first and get straight to the second. Therefore God, in doing what is best, created you here so that you can experience what is next.
I also agree with you that unless there is a necessity that connects heaven and earth in such a way as to make it logically impossible to have one without the other then, yes, God did not do His best. I admit this. Now can you admit that it is possible not necessarily so but possible that indeed there could be such a connection?
being in different "realms" does not infer isolation in the sense that there is no connection between the two realms. IMO it is the case that in order to get to heavenly realm one must first pass through the earthly realm. Thereby creating a connection between the two realms. Being in different realms does not imply isolation only a different form.
I feel that we will now continue going round and round
I agree with you that if a connection between heaven and earth does not exist in such a way as to make it logically impossible to have one without the other then, yes, God did not do His best. I admit this.
Now can you admit that it is possible, not necessarily so, but possible, that indeed, such a connection might exist? That it is not impossible for such a connection to exist.
One thing I think I can safely assert is that heaven for us cannot exist without earth.
If I understand your argument, you are saying,
"If there is a god who created the universe and us humans in it, and this god is all-powerful and loving and all those other good things, then why did this God not just put us in heaven where all is perfect, rather than having us go through this messy process of being born, and being being mistreated, and doing bad things, and having to learn how to do good things, and suffering, and seeing other people suffer, and dieing?"
And Amperage is saying, "This whole process that we go through on earth with all the stuff that we have to go through and learn from are all necessary as a part of getting to be in heaven."
Here is an analogy for your argument, Hue-man:
You seem to think that being in the end-zone is where you aught to start, and the game is over and there was nothing for anyone to prove. Ask anyone who has played football for the fun of it, and they will tell you that all the effort and the pain were worth it, whether they won or lost. In Football, as in life, it is not whether you "win" or you "lose", it is how you play that makes you a better person.
---------- Post added 02-07-2010 at 02:15 PM ----------
xris;125807 wrote:So you admit Amp that man can gain access to heaven without trial or acceptance of gods will ?
I admit that one must exist on earth first, and outside of that I believe there is an age of accountability before which people are covered.
