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Why does God permit evil????

 
 
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 01:19 am
@xris,
xris;124622 wrote:
Sorry...this god is not for me.


Please describe what an acceptable God would be for xris. How should God have made the Universe and how should God have made Humans that would meet with your satisfaction?

In providing your preferred description, please be careful not to unwittingly describe Heaven or God himself in the process. You can describe your perfect Universe any way you like, as long as it doesn't sound like Heaven, and you can describe your perfect Human creation any way you like as long as it doesn't sound like God.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 01:27 am
@Alan McDougall,
Pyrrho;124505 wrote:

That explicitly states that not even a tiny part of the law is to be altered, "Till heaven and earth pass".


I'm not interested in taking sides in this particular debate, but the answer to this question is just too easy. There are two other passages in Matthew in which Jesus explains what the Law actually is.

Matt 7:12 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

Matt 22: "36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.""

Thus, loving God is practiced by loving other people, and these two commandments are the entirety of the Law. If the Law appears to contradict these two commandments, either we are misunderstand the Law or the Law is wrong.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 04:04 am
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;124393 wrote:
Have you actually studied or even read the Bible Krumple? There is a bit more to the context than you give it credit for when quote mining to make a point.


Yeah I have and a lot of different versions as well. In fact I believe that there would be far fewer believers if they actually did read the bible. I bet a majority of believers have never read it from cover to cover. They only know the parts that they hear in church.

QuinticNon;124393 wrote:

I refuse to get suckered into defending against a barrage of quote mining. There are dozens more verses you could toss out and I'm just not here to defend the Bible against ignorance. Whatever you pick out of scripture next should be weighed against the context of the situation for those people, in that violent arena, at that violent time. Quote mining only serves to deceive the minds of modernity.


Well I could have kept going with the whole chapter, it pretty much supports the whole thing that I stated. I just assumed that I wouldn't need to quote the whole chapter because the point was already made. Why make it longer than necessary. I could have tossed in other chapters as well since they also support my point here. So feel free to keep saying I'm quote mining when you know that I'm not.

QuinticNon;124393 wrote:

You forget that God was answering 700 years of prayers against brutal enslavement and fulfilling prophecy of his own promise a thousand years beforehand.


Alright, fair enough, let me get something straight though. So if, I don't know, some group decides to enslave you, say Americans, and to bring justice to the situation, you can kill the infants of those slavers? How is killing the children of someone a justice? I know, because the bible writers believe that generations are accountable for the actions of their ancestors and should be held to the same tune as them. Only a backward system would support such a claim and you are here defending it. It is the ONLY way original sin works. Why should babies have to suffer for the crimes their great grandfathers committed? It is absurd.

Maybe we should kill off all Austrian babies to prevent another Hitler from growing up?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 05:29 am
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;124844 wrote:
Please describe what an acceptable God would be for xris. How should God have made the Universe and how should God have made Humans that would meet with your satisfaction?

In providing your preferred description, please be careful not to unwittingly describe Heaven or God himself in the process. You can describe your perfect Universe any way you like, as long as it doesn't sound like Heaven, and you can describe your perfect Human creation any way you like as long as it doesn't sound like God.
If I could do that then my searching would be at end. I dont need a god to accept that life and death have more than we can imagine. Why should I invent a god when there is no necessity. If god makes himself known to me and he convinces me of his logical existence, I will let you know. To me his invention ,by desire, has stopped many souls from searching for their spirituality and finding reason for life. If I was pushed into describing god ,I would say he is everyone of us, we are good and the evil , our salvation will be when we rid ourselves of evil intent and become as one. We can neither blame god nor praise him but we can condemn our evil and praise our goodness. Seek god in your being don't look for him because he is within you, be a power of good and we will become god the benevolent.
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 11:08 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;124851 wrote:
...I believe that there would be far fewer believers if they actually did read the bible.


That very well could be. I wonder if the Council at Nicaea felt the same. Could be because it was before the Bible was block printed and widely available to the common man to read for himself.

But could it be that some teachings are not necessarily meant to be read at their face value? Aside from the Children's Picture Bible, the Old Testament is not easily digested without the guidance from one who has studied it against history and language evolution. It would be like looking through a Calculus book without first learning simple Addition. Some understandings must be guided. Deep understandings must evolve.

Krumple;124851 wrote:
I bet a majority of believers have never read it from cover to cover. They only know the parts that they hear in church.


Agreed. Heh... Maybe what we need is a new edition to the Children's Picture Bible that illustrates in graphic detail the horrors of Jewish conquest of that age... OMG! Hahahahaha... I think it's a hit! Hahahaha...

Hey Kids... Look at this! Hahahahahahaa...:eek:

Krumple;124851 wrote:
Well I could have kept going with the whole chapter, it pretty much supports the whole thing that I stated... So feel free to keep saying I'm quote mining when you know that I'm not.


Sure... why stop with Deuteronomy... the whole thing is full of violence.

But yes, it is quote mining because you choose what you want (out of context) to push forth your position that God is either imagined or evil himself.

Damn! I said I wasn't going to defend the OT... I am now a liar for doing so. I hate going back on my word... Damnsss!

You completely ignore Deuteronomy 20:10. You give no credentials to the factors of that violent era not being applicable to todays society. You refuse to acknowledge a separation between the Law of God and the Law of Moses. You don't account for the fact that all nation states of that time were extremely violent, and the ones conquered by the Jews were some of the most treacherous societies of all who burned their own children upon the alter of Baal.

Put the times of that era in context P-L-E-A-S-E... I said please...

Krumple;124851 wrote:
So if... some group decides to enslave you, say Americans, and to bring justice to the situation, you can kill the infants of those slavers? How is killing the children of someone a justice?


It's not about Justice... or Justification... The Jews didn't conquer and kill out of ridding the world of wrongness... otherwise Deut 10:20 would not apply. The Jews conquered and killed because they were taking back what they felt was rightfully theirs... and... because they were not to be tainted in any way by the perceived evil practices of the nations they conquered... which by the way, turned out to be the very thing that brought them down because they eventually could not do that, and did decide to embrace other cultural practices... starting with King Saul consulting with the Witch of Endor.

Krumple;124851 wrote:
I know, because the bible writers believe that generations are accountable for the actions of their ancestors and should be held to the same tune as them.


That is an incorrect assessment. The 7 generations warning was not an official law... It was a warning to the hearts of men and their chosen behaviors of wickedness. It's a rather interesting insight actually, and I've considered it at great length. Think about it... it was a warning to any man who would embrace iniquity. He does not see the generational damage he is foisting upon his own family. It's a warning to the alcoholic wife/child abuser that he will unwittingly raise up a son who is most probably also another alcoholic wife/child abuser. And that grown up child will probably raise another son just like himself... and so on... and so on... The Bible is warning us that it may take 7 generations for that sickness to work it's way out of that family's heritage, being diffused slowly over time from the co-joining of other family's being mixed with the aggressors. It's a fascinating warning actually, and may in fact be applicable to today's society in a psycho-therapeutic kind of way.

Krumple;124851 wrote:
Only a backward system would support such a claim and you are here defending it.


Not defending it. Just considering it beyond the superficial nature that that warning is so often brushed over. There may be great wisdom there if one would only consider it rather than jumping quickly to judge it out of context.

Krumple;124851 wrote:
It is the ONLY way original sin works. Why should babies have to suffer for the crimes their great grandfathers committed? It is absurd.


I don't know why a baby born to a drug addict should suffer... you tell me. Just think about it please... It may actually take 7 generations for that sickness to dissolve. I'd love to see a study on this, on the average number of generations it takes for iniquities to be completely removed by... what... Natural Selection possibly?

Krumple;124851 wrote:
Maybe we should kill off all Austrian babies to prevent another Hitler from growing up?


Out of context Krumple. Just think about it please.

---------- Post added 02-04-2010 at 11:28 AM ----------

xris;124858 wrote:
If I could do that then my searching would be at end.


So you are searching for God? Just can't find one you approve of? Are you searching for God or the meaning of Life?

xris;124858 wrote:
I dont need a god to accept that life and death have more than we can imagine.


What do you need, in order to "accept that life and death have more than we can imagine."?

xris;124858 wrote:
Why should I invent a god when there is no necessity.


Why should anyone invent a god when a God already exists?

xris;124858 wrote:
If god makes himself known to me and he convinces me of his logical existence, I will let you know.


That's OK... I already know. And letting you know that I know makes no difference whatsoever to you. You letting me know will likewise do the same.

xris;124858 wrote:
To me his invention ,by desire, has stopped many souls from searching for their spirituality and finding reason for life.


And for others quite the opposite is true. Will you deny them that by denying their beliefs? Either way, "searching for their spirituality and finding reason for life" is accomplished... right? Everybody's happy! Why deny someone else's God if it promotes their spirituality? That is your goal... right? Or will you not be satisfied until everyone finds their spirituality without God... invented or not?

xris;124858 wrote:
If I was pushed into describing god ,I would say he is everyone of us, we are good and the evil , our salvation will be when we rid ourselves of evil intent and become as one.


How does this god of yours account for creation and afterlife? Is this "PeopleGod" not suffering from a God complex? Wishing to be God themselves... they embrace the very Pride of Lucifer.

xris;124858 wrote:
We can neither blame god nor praise him but we can condemn our evil and praise our goodness.


But if this "PeopleGod" is all people, then what of all the Hitlerian PeopleGod's who would praise evil and condemn goodness?

xris;124858 wrote:
Seek god in your being don't look for him because he is within you, be a power of good and we will become god the benevolent.


Where is God within the Child Abuser? How will he become God the Benevolent? Is that really the kind of God you approve of?

This OP now evolves to: Why does PeopleGod permit evil???

Why does PeopleGod hurt PeopleGod?

Is this the logic you spoke of earlier?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 01:01 pm
@QuinticNon,
I dont need god especially your invention , I am looking for the truth not your certainties. If man was created by your god then he invented Hitler and all the other nasty souls that have existed or do you just select the saints to make god look good at creation? You claim the good but not the bad , rather selective. Hitler represented evil , without other evil men he had no more evil than any other sick barsteward.

My spirituality is not constructed by dogmatic scriptures, it accepts we need more than ancient words written by men to attain enlightenment.
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 02:19 pm
@xris,
xris;124923 wrote:
If man was created by your god then he invented Hitler and all the other nasty souls that have existed or do you just select the saints to make god look good at creation?


I never claimed God created Hitler or the Saints. God created Life, thus making both Hitler and the Saints possible. Hitler and the Saints created their own essence with every good and evil deed they pursued for themselves. God's not pulling their strings.

xris;124923 wrote:
You claim the good but not the bad , rather selective.


Not so Xris. Each man claims the good and bad for themselves. God has nothing to do with our individual choices.

xris;124923 wrote:
Hitler represented evil , without other evil men he had no more evil than any other sick barsteward.


To you... and me. But he represented good to the German people of his time. Good and Evil are not from God. Free Will is from God. Good and Evil are man made concepts. They are purely subjective. They are from the perspective of mankind and weighed against the given circumstances of the moments that are upon them.

xris;124923 wrote:
My spirituality is not constructed by dogmatic scriptures, it accepts we need more than ancient words written by men to attain enlightenment.


That's great. Spirituality does not necessarily have to come from the scriptures. And you are right, we do need more than ancient words written by men. We need current hearts and minds cultivated by men. Why is it so unacceptable to weigh our current hearts and minds against ancient scripture though?

And lastly, please tell me what your personal spirituality tells you about the creation of the Universe and our fate in the Afterlife? If you are spiritual, then you must believe in Spirit. What is the source and end fate of the Spirit? If you don't believe in Spirit, then you cannot possibly be spiritual.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 03:49 pm
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;124897 wrote:
But could it be that some teachings are not necessarily meant to be read at their face value? Aside from the Children's Picture Bible, the Old Testament is not easily digested without the guidance from one who has studied it against history and language evolution. It would be like looking through a Calculus book without first learning simple Addition. Some understandings must be guided. Deep understandings must evolve.


Well that is a little absurd too. Why make it so difficult to understand if you are expecting people to make a choice? Using your example it would be like basing everyone's grades off the calculus final even if they have never taken a single math class they are still required to take the calculus exam.

You are an apologetic, and have for some reason to defend every point the bible makes that shouldn't be defended. It's pretty clear that it promotes violence not just in single ways but multiple ways and for multiple purposes. You can try to say well Jesus changed all that stuff, but that is just as silly, since you can't really determine if Jesus was divinity or just something that got attributed to him. Not all of his actions were very clear or orderly. Like the fig tree incident. Sure you could claim it is a metaphor but no matter how you spin that metaphor it basically says, that people who don't bare goodness should be shunned or outright damned. That is neither loving nor something praise worthy. If it is not a metaphor but he actually cursed the tree for not providing fruit, well then that is just remarkably stupid.
0 Replies
 
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 04:29 pm
@Alan McDougall,
I guess I am an apologetic, unwittingly so however. That term is usually claimed by Christians. I am no Christian in any recognizable sense of the word. In fact, I believe the modern day Christian will miss the second coming of Christ every bit as much as they accuse the Jews of missing the first coming. They simply will not recognize him. They don't even know what a Christ is.

Christians claim that Jesus is the Son of God. But Jesus never said that once. Many others say that about him but Christ never said it. The Christian religion is a butchery of the original teachings. No one remembers that the movement was originally called "The Way". Yep, that's right, just like the Buddhist teaching of The Way. I have a theory that during the missing twelve years of Jesus life in the Bible, he went to Asia to either learn or teach. Buddhism arose about 100 years there after the life of Christ. And remember, when Jesus told the Disciples to spread the word, that he specifically prevented them from going into Asia.

I study all religions I can get my hands on. If I'm an apologetic, then I guess I'm an apologetic for all of them. But only to save their ancient heritage from the ignorant judgment of modernity... and that is all.

Fig tree you say? Is that the lesson you learned from that story? Do you think your interpretation is the only one worthy of not being accused of "spin"? Do you think there may be another lesson that you may have overlooked?
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 06:08 pm
@xris,
xris;124858 wrote:
If I could do that then my searching would be at end. I dont need a god to accept that life and death have more than we can imagine. Why should I invent a god when there is no necessity. If god makes himself known to me and he convinces me of his logical existence, I will let you know. To me his invention ,by desire, has stopped many souls from searching for their spirituality and finding reason for life. If I was pushed into describing god ,I would say he is everyone of us, we are good and the evil , our salvation will be when we rid ourselves of evil intent and become as one. We can neither blame god nor praise him but we can condemn our evil and praise our goodness. Seek god in your being don't look for him because he is within you, be a power of good and we will become god the benevolent.


XRIS how about the below view?

Who are we really in the now?

The essential complete you, or your whole real essence, is a field of awareness that interacts with its own self (Soul) and then becomes both mind/brain and body. In other words, you are consciousness or spirit, which then conceives, constructs, governs, and becomes the mind/brain and the body. The real you are inseparable from the patterns of intelligence that permeate every fiber of creation.

At the deepest level of existence, you are an infinite eternal Being, and you are nowhere and everywhere at the same time. There is no other "you" than the entire cosmos. The God + cosmic mind creates the physical universe, and the personal mind/brain (Soul) experiences the physical universe. But in truth, the cosmic mind and our personal mind are both permeated by "God The Infinite Consciousness". "God The Infinite Consciousness" is our source, and all manifestation is inherent within it.

"God the Infinite Consciousness" observing itself creates the notion of observer, or the soul; the process of observation, or the mind; and that which is observed, or the body and the world. The observer and the observed create relationships between themselves; this is space. The movement of these relationships creates events; this is time. But all these are none other than the "God the Infinite Consciousness" itself.

In other words, we are "God the Infinite Consciousness" with a "localized point of view" An aspect or facet of the great reality we call God. And yet our whole system of thought divides the "Great Observer God" from the observed us; it divides the "God the Infinite Consciousness" into a world of objects separated by space and time. The "the intellect of the brain" imprisons us in a cage of fictitious images, a suffocating web of space, time, and causation. As a result, we lose touch with the true nature of our reality, which is powerful, boundless, immortal, and free.

We are all prisoners of the "the intellect of the brain". And the "the intellect of the brain's mistake in one simple sentence is this: It mistakes the image of reality for reality itself. It squeezes the soul into the volume of a body, in the span of a lifetime, and now the spell of mortality is cast. The image of the self overshadows the unbounded Self, and we feel cut off or disconnected from "God the Infinite Consciousness", our source.

This is the beginning of fear, the onset of suffering, and all the problems of humanity from our minor insecurities to our major catastrophes like war, terrorism, and all other acts of human degradation. To one who is trapped in the prison of the "the intellect of the brain", all indeed is suffering. But the cause of the suffering can and should be averted. Ignorance of our real nature causes the inner self to be obscured. But when ignorance is destroyed, the powerful, unbounded, free nature of the self is revealed, and we are released into the knowledge of unimaginable freedom , peace, love and everlasting joy.

The real you are nonmaterial and therefore not subject to the limitations of space, time, matter, and causation. The soul, the spirit, the essential you, is beyond all that. In this very moment, you are surrounded by a pure consciousness. Pure consciousness illuminates and animates your mind and body, and it is powerful, nourishing, invincible, unbounded, and free. Pure consciousness, "God the Infinite Eternal Spirit", animates and sustains everything in existence, which means it is omniscient (all knowing), omnipresent (present in all locations simultaneously), and omnipotent (all powerful). "And when we learn and grow and evolve into understanding we shall be all those things also, indeed co- creators with God"
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 09:21 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Ok here is my opinion concerning stories in the Old Testament the likes of which you discussed.

When evaluating the Old Testament we must keep several things in mind.

(1) First, is the notion of progressive revelationGod's larger purpose. God's purpose was to raise a holy people to Himself, through which the Savior of the world would come. It is apparent that certain groups of people, who had become so sinful, that by their very presence in the land which God had set forth for the Hebrews, they were a threat to God's plan of salvation. Let us also bear in mind that God said in Deuteronomy 9:4-6 that it had nothing to do with the Israelites but it was because of the wickedness of the other nations that He drove them out.

(3) Third, Let us not forget that God ALWAYS provided an out for those willing to turn from their wicked ways. As QuinticNon pointed out in Deuteronomy 20:10, peace was always offered first and foremost. God gave the people of that land around 470 years if not more to repent(Genesis 15:13-16, Deuteronomy 9:4-6), and I'm sure many did. Also, in essentially every one of these stores we see again and again that God will and did spare any who were righteous, including Rahab at Jericho, Lot's family at Sodom, etc. etc.

(4)Forth, back to the idea of progressive revelation is the fact that the reason things of this nature do not go on today is because God poured out His wrath and rejection of sin on Jesus. Jesus bore the brunt of a large portion of God's judgment towards sin. He that was without sin, was made to become sin so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God. Through Christ we are no longer bound by the chains of the old law but we fall under a completely new covenant, and while the old law still exists, we understand that it is through faith that we establish that Law. In fact, Paul says we were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that we might be joined to another, to Him who raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. The point is that Law brings us knowledge of sin, while Christ frees us from the burden of sin. So that we are no longer dead, but that we can have life, and have it more abundantly.

I only write this to say that we have to keep things in perspective and attempt to see the big picture as best we can. At the end of the day, God did exactly what was necessary to achieve His goal and only that which was just. And the lessons for us today are completely different in light of new revelations(ie Christ)
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 11:44 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 12:03 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;125002 wrote:
How about you guys actually reading some of my posts, especially in light of the fact that I am the initiator of this thread
posts read Smile I think evil, like fear exists for one purpose....to be conquered. To paraphrase a quote from Arjuna which I thought was very applicable, these trials(evils) merely serve as a medium by which greatness can become known. For it is through adversity that one truly learns what kind of person one is. And in the words of Thomas Paine, "the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph."

Where knowledge can be seen as the greatest weapon against fear, God is the greatest weapon against evil.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 04:51 am
@Amperage,
Amperage;124988 wrote:
(4)Forth, back to the idea of progressive revelation is the fact that the reason things of this nature do not go on today is because God poured out His wrath and rejection of sin on Jesus.


Oh here we go again, with the scape goat concept that the bible likes to repeat often. You got a problem, buy a goat, place all your problems on it and send it out into the desert to die, problem solved. No, it can't happen that way, wouldn't happen that way, and it is only superstition. But since you still believe it is possible for a person to take away your sin for you, I have a question about that.

Amperage;124988 wrote:

Jesus bore the brunt of a large portion of God's judgment towards sin. He that was without sin, was made to become sin so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God. Through Christ we are no longer bound by the chains of the old law but we fall under a completely new covenant, and while the old law still exists, we understand that it is through faith that we establish that Law.


What? Seriously, you believe this? If god was involved why was it necessary for this to happen? Seems very silly as if he was going through a learning process. Or Jesus wasn't actually divinity but showed god up and the people accept Jesus over the old god. But you can't really have that now, so why not turn Jesus into god? Yeah that solves everything. Jesus was just a man, he made mistakes, the bible even records that he made mistakes. But even if god was aware of the plan, it seems rather absurd of reasoning to go through with the whole thing.

If god is all knowing, he would have known what was going to happen. If it was going to change gods mind, which that is what you are basically saying. The old laws are now trumped by the new law, it stands to reason that god felt the need to ratify the old law. But he needs a scape goat first, so we can place all the problems of the people onto it and send it to die. Yeah that will solve everything. No superstition here.

Amperage;124988 wrote:

In fact, Paul says we were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that we might be joined to another, to Him who raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. The point is that Law brings us knowledge of sin, while Christ frees us from the burden of sin. So that we are no longer dead, but that we can have life, and have it more abundantly.


Just a play on words, to make a person indentured to this flawed belief system. You are promoting something by which has no basis for. Let alone people don't even reason out what it would mean. Eternal life? No one really wants eternal life. I have pointed out on many occasions that any eternal life would eventually become an eternal torment. There is absolutely no way that you could make that existence a pleasant one. Unless you totally removed the humanistic mind completely, but that would of course erase everything that made you, you. You really don't want to live for ever, sure you might not want to die, but I bet if you really examine it, you really wouldn't want it.

Amperage;124988 wrote:

I only write this to say that we have to keep things in perspective and attempt to see the big picture as best we can. At the end of the day, God did exactly what was necessary to achieve His goal and only that which was just. And the lessons for us today are completely different in light of new revelations(ie Christ)


God did what was necessary to change his own mind you mean? Why didn't he get it right the first time through? Seems quite absurd that he would have to change the rules because he now realizes that humanity with free will just could live up to his expectation, so to prevent him from destroying everything again, he would need to change his own mind. I can't believe people actually justify and believe this nonsense.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 05:14 am
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;124935 wrote:
I never claimed God created Hitler or the Saints. God created Life, thus making both Hitler and the Saints possible. Hitler and the Saints created their own essence with every good and evil deed they pursued for themselves. God's not pulling their strings.



Not so Xris. Each man claims the good and bad for themselves. God has nothing to do with our individual choices.



To you... and me. But he represented good to the German people of his time. Good and Evil are not from God. Free Will is from God. Good and Evil are man made concepts. They are purely subjective. They are from the perspective of mankind and weighed against the given circumstances of the moments that are upon them.



That's great. Spirituality does not necessarily have to come from the scriptures. And you are right, we do need more than ancient words written by men. We need current hearts and minds cultivated by men. Why is it so unacceptable to weigh our current hearts and minds against ancient scripture though?

And lastly, please tell me what your personal spirituality tells you about the creation of the Universe and our fate in the Afterlife? If you are spiritual, then you must believe in Spirit. What is the source and end fate of the Spirit? If you don't believe in Spirit, then you cannot possibly be spiritual.
I believe in the possibility of a soul and all the consequences that might entail but I dont or wont invent an illogical god that does not pass muster.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 07:00 am
@xris,
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 07:34 am
@Alan McDougall,
So what purpose is life to an orphan child dying of starvation before its reached three, Alan. What wondrous gift of life experiences has this child endured to find salvation. How long must humanity suffer these cruelties before it is worthy of gods presence? How many horrors must we view before we are capable of grace? It just dont make sense Alan.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 07:43 am
@xris,
xris;125063 wrote:
So what purpose is life to an orphan child dying of starvation before its reached three, Alan. What wondrous gift of life experiences has this child endured to find salvation. How long must humanity suffer these cruelties before it is worthy of gods presence? How many horrors must we view before we are capable of grace? It just dont make sense Alan.


The purpose may well be collective and not individual...
...unfortunattly HORROR instructs and teaches...
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 07:57 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;125065 wrote:
The purpose may well be collective and not individual...
...unfortunattly HORROR instructs and teaches...
It may well be,whats that mean? A child dying alone will teach me a certain something? Yes it teaches me that there is no such thing as a benevolent god,what does it teach you? How many kids have to die this way before our collective experiences have the ability to learn? I would estimate in the history of mankind possible millions of children have died in this manner, pretty slow in learning this elusive lesson, aint we.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 10:21 am
@xris,
I agree that certainly God is not benevolent in the common sense approach, but that does not mean that it is not Good or Necessary...Suffering is the measure for Pleasure and Beauty....Value rises from this necessary conflict, just like in an Economic Stock Market graphic...denying one results in denying the other, so there is no much point in complaining...if not to eternally fight in the opposite direction, witch is the purpose of the entire "THING" in the first place...
 

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