Why does God permit evil????

@Pyrrho,

Pyrrho;124139 wrote:

There is nothing that could possibly happen in Haiti in the future that will help the ones who are dead from the earthquake.

What help do you think they need?

The entire perspective of the Theist is that the Living are the ones in need of help, not the Dead, for the Dead have returned to their True home. The Dead are arguably better off that the Living.

Leaving this Physical Realm is the greatest gift of all.

2 Replies

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;124140 wrote:

What help do you think they need?

The entire perspective of the Theist is that the Living are the ones in need of help, not the Dead, for the Dead have returned to their True home. The Dead are arguably better off that the Living.

Leaving this Physical Realm is the greatest gift of all.

If that is true, then mass murderers are the most beneficent people of all.

2 Replies

@1CellOfMany,

1CellOfMany;123940 wrote:

[In truth, we really only need I or II, but III is the conclusion that the atheists believe and the belief to which they wish us all to convert.] ;- D

A little dishonest here with that ending statement. I can speak for myself when I say I am not trying to convert anyone. I think you should be able to believe what ever you want to believe. My point is that I don't want someone else's beliefs that I don't agree with to dictate how I should live my life because they have convinced some law makers that their beliefs are legit and right. So I am out to bring reason back to the whole issue. Just like if someone got incorrect information, I feel it necessary to fill them in. Do I know? Nope, and neither do they. That's the truth.

1CellOfMany;123940 wrote:

Assertion C - 1 is supportable and verifiable as far as human persons (and many other living creatures, particularly mammals and marsupials) are concerned, but the question is, whether it is reasonable to extend this assertion and apply it to the God whose nature and existence we are testing. I will conclude with my own arguments why we cannot extend this generalization about persons to God; that is, why C - 2 is not acceptable. (Understand that this is an argument specifically regarding why proposition C cannot be reasonably applied to the being described in proposition X):

If C-2 can not be attributed to god, then I propose that Assertion C-1 can not be attributed to god either. This is a common mistake that theists make, they really like saying god is love, but then god can't be understood in a humanistic way. No, you can't say that and the reason I say god can not be love is because love is fickle of an emotion. Let me explain;

Show me an example of where love is not fickle? You want to say between family members? A mother to son or daughter? A father to son or daughter? Nope, these are very fickle situations. Would you still love your son if he murdered you over you asking him to quit skipping school? (recent local news story) I can't imagine that there was a whole lot of love there even though I bet they would try to claim it. Love can not be unconditional or else it would happen always. It can't happen always or else you would never experience anything else. This is not reflection of the god in the bible in the least, so no where is it consistent to say that god is love always. Show me where that is stated and I can show you where it would be in conflict.

1CellOfMany;123940 wrote:

God, on the other hand, does not have such a need, as He is not part of any species, but has created all species and the balance of forces that supports them and causes them to evolve and advance. Therefore, it is unreasonable to say that God is enough like a "person" that statement C - 1 applies to God.

You have to be consistent here or you are being dishonest. God could not qualify for love then either as your definition points out that love arises through mutual understanding or connection of a common interest. Which god does not have, therefore god would never develop love.

1CellOfMany;123940 wrote:

God shows His love by providing guidance to our human species, whom he has endowed with capacity far beyond that of all other species. His guidance is the surest means to ensure the advancement of the species with a minimum of pain and suffering. We will be able to use observation of the decrease in the pain and suffering in the world as one small measure of how well we are following His guidance:

What guidance? That you should kill people who say negative things about the holy spirit? Is that guidance that you are referring to?

1CellOfMany;123940 wrote:

"O CHILDREN OF MEN! Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory."

Treat everyone as equal to yourself? Yeah sounds like a good message but no one does it. I have never found a single person that does that. People have levels of how much consideration they give out. Themselves or their family first, then their friends or close acquaintances then strangers at the end. I have never seen a person say they love an absolute stranger like they do their mother or father. Oh but that is different you say? Not according to what you quote it isn't. "One mouth" doesn't distinguished who is left out, so all should be the same. No one does it.

The last part is the part I always have trouble understanding. Why is it that you use reasoning skills all through out your daily life but as soon as it comes to this one topic you toss it out as if you don't need it. Are you saying it can't be used here? If it can't be used how could you even arrive at the concept itself then? Let me give you an example of what I mean.

You wake up, you are hungry. You seem to have temporary memory problems but you need to find a solution for your hunger. You ponder a moment and remember that your kitchen is where you get your food from. So you get up and shuffle off to the kitchen. When you get there you completely stop trying to solve your problem because you have decided that no further reasoning is required. You were hungry, you managed to get to the kitchen where food is, so problem solved. But no it's not, because you still haven't gotten the food. Yet without any more reasoning skills you can't get there.

In other words, you say reasoning can not solve the problem, then I say that what you are trying to solve is in fact unreasonable. Nothing else in your existence requires that you toss out reasoning. I would add that if you did, you would probably not live very long if you did.

1 Reply

@Pyrrho,

Old age could be a nice way to leave this Realm.

0 Replies

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;124140 wrote:

What help do you think they need?

The entire perspective of the Theist is that the Living are the ones in need of help, not the Dead, for the Dead have returned to their True home. The Dead are arguably better off that the Living.

Leaving this Physical Realm is the greatest gift of all.

Maybe that is what Obama means when he says we are bringing the troops home. We are doing it one troop at a time. Gotta love war then since it speeds up the return trip.

0 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;124097 wrote:

It is not illogical to do what is contradictory. It is impossible. But, it is illogical to believe that what is contradictory can be done. So, it is not God who is illogical, it is you.

You dont have to keep going on you have explained why you think god is illogical more than once.

---------- Post added 02-01-2010 at 02:37 PM ----------

QuinticNon;124098 wrote:

So you won't be satisfied until God creates us as perfect Beings? You want God to create other Gods? Nothing less will do? I see a pattern forming here... It's called "God Complex"... and it begins with Humans judging God for not doing things the way Humans think they should be done.

so whats gods ultimate plan for us..to be kept in this permanent state of ignorance, of imperfect sinfulness? come on whats our destination?

---------- Post added 02-01-2010 at 02:43 PM ----------

1CellOfMany;124125 wrote:

I am not sure what you mean when you say that I "reinvented god to fit the theory". I am certain that my concept of what God is is different from your concept, but I do not see where I strayed from a scriptually correct concept. What I did do was to give support to the idea that God is much more than some "person" or "person-like" being Whom we sat has certain powers and a certain history.

Im sure your view of god is more than a certain personable human, my point was that you have changed his image to fit the illogical question. You have made him incomprehensible or is that unbelievable. Its always good escape route for the believer when the questions get difficult is to say his beyond understanding.

0 Replies

@Krumple,

Krumple, I stated that God give us guidance, and you said:

Krumple;124149 wrote:

What guidance? That you should kill people who say negative things about the holy spirit? Is that guidance that you are referring to?

I quoted a short passage of guidance from God, which tells us, "O CHILDREN OF MEN! Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory," and you replied:

Krumple;124149 wrote:

Treat everyone as equal to yourself? Yeah sounds like a good message but no one does it. I have never found a single person that does that. People have levels of how much consideration they give out. Themselves or their family first, then their friends or close acquaintances then strangers at the end. I have never seen a person say they love an absolute stranger like they do their mother or father. Oh but that is different you say? Not according to what you quote it isn't. "One mouth" doesn't distinguished who is left out, so all should be the same. No one does it.

The purpose of guidance is not to judge others according to whether they follow that guidance. You complained earlier about others imposing their beliefs on you. I agree (and God's guidance in the scriptures agree) that it is for each person to strive to follow God's guidance themselves, and that people should refrain from looking at how well others are following.
So, if you think that it "sounds like a good message," then it is up to you to see how well you can do at following that guidance, just as it is up to me to work on my own character and by own consistency in treating others well.

1 Reply

@Pyrrho,

Pyrrho;124146 wrote:

If that is true, then mass murderers are the most beneficent people of all.

Though you are on the cusp of getting a clue for how things truly work, you're not getting (or relating) the entire picture.

The "mass murderer" is truly desiring to do harm... by way of his intentional thoughts manifest into physical action. This only supports the notion that Evil is a product of mindful intentions. What God knows, and what every enlightened Theist knows, is that no real harm will come to the victim. It's only apparent harm... and there is more to the story beyond that. Because a loving God prepares a great awakening for those who have fallen physically.

No shortage of Near Death Experiences (NDE) that consistently relate an over abundant loving light waiting for them on the other side. Countless people have all related the exact same stories of immediate relief of suffering and pain upon the moment of their pronounced death. This relief is always accompanied by the most wonderful feeling of love they have ever known.

When they return to their physical body, for whatever reason, they are met with great pain and suffering again. Hardly any of them claim wanting to return... but for whatever reason, they do return, and even in the midst of their pain, their outlook is changed forever, knowing there is a great comforter on the other side waiting for them when the time comes again. They consistently loose their fear of death.

Isn't that how a loving God would work? He takes what is commonly thought to be impenetrable tragedy, and turn it around making it incomparable comfort. I see it much like a child who is bullied in elementary school. She endures suffering at the hands of her tormentor, only later to find herself comforted more than usual from those that love her, and specifically because of the bullying she previously endured.

Another observation about NDE. It is also commonly stated that each person must face a life review. Upon that review, they are forced to revisit their transgression towards others they have hurt during their lifetime. But they face this from the perspective of their victim. They are made to feel the very pain they inflicted upon the other from the perspective of the other. What greater punishment could there be other than enduring the very evil that was cast by them in the first place? What justice could be more fair?

In this way, we are given the chance to forgive, without the need for revenge. The transgressor feels the sorrow for his actions, and ultimately discovers that he has only hurt himself.

______________________________________________

As the story of the Enlightened One is told...

His most advanced student, having become enlightened himself, was set to travel alone to a far away kingdom of wickedness. The student was to become an example for the people, bringing them hope in the midst of sorrow and wickedness.

The Enlightened One asked of the Student:
"And what shall you ponder if they will not listen to you"?

The Student replied:
"Then I give thanks they do not mock me".

The Enlightened One asked:
"And what shall you ponder if they mock you"?

The Student replied:
"Then I give thanks they do not harm me".

The Enlightened One asked:
"And what shall you ponder if they harm you"?

The Student replied:
"Then I give thanks they have not killed me"?

The Enlightened One asked:
"And what shall you ponder if they kill you"?

The Student replied:
"Then I shall thank them for releasing me from this temporal realm".

All fear is removed. No anger nor revenge exists either. Any sorrow is not expressed for the self, rather expressed instead for the ones who would do him harm. For within their evil actions against him, they only hurt themselves.

---------- Post added 02-01-2010 at 08:26 PM ----------

Krumple;124152 wrote:

Maybe that is what Obama means when he says we are bringing the troops home. We are doing it one troop at a time. Gotta love war then since it speeds up the return trip.

You're missing the lesson. See above^^^

The harm does not come to those who die... The harm comes to those who build the machines of war.

2 Replies

@1CellOfMany,

1CellOfMany;124257 wrote:

The purpose of guidance is not to judge others according to whether they follow that guidance. You complained earlier about others imposing their beliefs on you. I agree (and God's guidance in the scriptures agree) that it is for each person to strive to follow God's guidance themselves, and that people should refrain from looking at how well others are following.
So, if you think that it "sounds like a good message," then it is up to you to see how well you can do at following that guidance, just as it is up to me to work on my own character and by own consistency in treating others well.

I was questioning the guidance. It looks like you are picking and choosing what is guidance and what is not. But you are getting them all from the same source. Doesn't that seem like a little convoluted? So why are you not out killing disobedient children? I mean, isn't that god's guidance? Or how come you aren't killing those who speak against the word of god? Isn't that his guidance?

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst."
Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Are you coming to kill me now?

---------- Post added 02-02-2010 at 01:06 AM ----------

QuinticNon;124265 wrote:

No shortage of Near Death Experiences (NDE) that consistently relate an over abundant loving light waiting for them on the other side. Countless people have all related the exact same stories of immediate relief of suffering and pain upon the moment of their pronounced death.

There are just as many stories that people experienced nothing too. One is a close friend of mine, who was a believer, but after having his accident and dying said he experienced nothing. He remembers the accident happening in detail and then waking up in the hospital. No one even told him that he had died twice (once on the way to the hospital and once after they were processing his injuries) until a few days later. I guess he didn't qualify for the white light maybe?

QuinticNon;124265 wrote:

Isn't that how a loving God would work? He takes what is commonly thought to be impenetrable tragedy, and turn it around making it incomparable comfort.

This is battered syndrome. You are justifying suffering because there will be a reward at the end of it. You are justifying the actions or inaction because there is something you think will make it better later. This makes god the abuser and you the justifyer.

QuinticNon;124265 wrote:

Another observation about NDE. It is also commonly stated that each person must face a life review. Upon that review, they are forced to revisit their transgression towards others they have hurt during their lifetime. But they face this from the perspective of their victim. They are made to feel the very pain they inflicted upon the other from the perspective of the other. What greater punishment could there be other than enduring the very evil that was cast by them in the first place? What justice could be more fair?

Yeah sounds like a pretty good way to get someone to regret their actions but wouldn't it have been better to do that while they could have done something different? I mean it's like correcting someone on a mistake but never letting them correct it? That is silly.

QuinticNon;124265 wrote:

In this way, we are given the chance to forgive, without the need for revenge. The transgressor feels the sorrow for his actions, and ultimately discovers that he has only hurt himself.

Nope that is dishonest. This assumes that they actually care, but what about those who actually enjoy watching people suffer? They would get enjoyment out of such an experience. Not everyone experiences reality the same as you.

QuinticNon;124265 wrote:

The Enlightened One asked of the Student:
"And what shall you ponder if they will not listen to you"?

The Student replied:
"Then I give thanks they do not mock me".

The Enlightened One asked:
"And what shall you ponder if they mock you"?

The Student replied:
"Then I give thanks they do not harm me".

The Enlightened One asked:
"And what shall you ponder if they harm you"?

The Student replied:
"Then I give thanks they have not killed me"?

The Enlightened One asked:
"And what shall you ponder if they kill you"?

The Student replied:
"Then I shall thank them for releasing me from this temporal realm".

All fear is removed. No anger nor revenge exists either. Any sorrow is not expressed for the self, rather expressed instead for the ones who would do him harm. For within their evil actions against him, they only hurt themselves.

[/COLOR]No, you got it all wrong. No Buddhist would ever accept that definition or interpretation. You miss something, if hurting themselves was what they were doing, then they would do something to prevent them from hurting themselves. No Buddhist stands aside for their own salvation at the expense of others.

QuinticNon;124265 wrote:

The harm does not come to those who die... The harm comes to those who build the machines of war.

What about who constructs the catalyst for war? What about the book that promotes going to war? Shouldn't they also be held accountable? God has been quoted from the bible;

"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."
1Samuel 15:3

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;124265 wrote:

The Student replied:
"Then I give thanks they have not killed me".

The Enlightened One asked:
"And what shall you ponder if they kill you"?

The Student replied:
"Then I shall thank them for releasing me from this temporal realm".

The above two replies are inconsistent. The Student would give thanks both for being killed and for not being killed. How can killing and not killing both be right?

0 Replies

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;124265 wrote:

Though you are on the cusp of getting a clue for how things truly work, you're not getting (or relating) the entire picture.

The "mass murderer" is truly desiring to do harm... ...

You are wrong. People can kill others with the intention of sending them to heaven. So it can be benevolently motivated. And if, as you claimed earlier, "Leaving this Physical Realm is the greatest gift of all", then it would be the best thing that people could possibly do.

The simple fact is, you say things that entail things that you reject, and then you pretend that what you said does not entail those things. You are not being consistent, which means that you are not only wrong, but necessarily wrong.

0 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

Krumple;124298 wrote:

Deuteronomy 13:7-12 & 1Samuel 15:3

Have you actually studied or even read the Bible Krumple? There is a bit more to the context than you give it credit for when quote mining to make a point.

I refuse to get suckered into defending against a barrage of quote mining. There are dozens more verses you could toss out and I'm just not here to defend the Bible against ignorance. Whatever you pick out of scripture next should be weighed against the context of the situation for those people, in that violent arena, at that violent time. Quote mining only serves to deceive the minds of modernity.

You forget that God was answering 700 years of prayers against brutal enslavement and fulfilling prophecy of his own promise a thousand years beforehand. You do not see the difference in the Law of God and the Law of Moses. One was to govern the hearts of Men. The other was for governance of Israel, in regards to what had been set aside and promised to them. Both were set forth as guidelines for purity to their respective purposes. Neither set of Laws were successfully accomplished by those they were intended for.

You may quote mine all you want to serve the purpose of any argument you put forth. But keep in mind that a peaceful solution was always paramount in all pursuits of reclaiming what had been set aside for the Israelites. They were either passing through to get to their Promised Land, or clearing out the occupiers of their own territory. Resistance was dealt with according to the end goal.

If you don't study the Bible enough to put your accusations in context, then please at least weigh any further quote mining against this verse.

Deuteronomy 20:10
"When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it."

On Inconsistent NDE

Krumple;124298 wrote:

There are just as many stories that people experienced nothing too. One is a close friend of mine, who was a believer, but after having his accident and dying said he experienced nothing? I guess he didn't qualify

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I cannot speak to why your friend did not experience his NDE. I can only consider the consistency of those who have, and weigh their uniformity against multi cultural bias of geography, upbringing, and time.

On Justifying Suffering

Krumple;124298 wrote:

This is battered syndrome. You are justifying suffering because there will be a reward at the end of it.

You're on the verge of regressing this discussion back to assuming that pain and suffering are synonymous with evil. I justify nothing here.

A poor use of the word "justify" is nothing more than an excuse hoping to be misunderstood as Justice. That is an unacceptable conflation.

Justification attempts to offer a reason. It leapfrogs over the one who is actually responsible for the torment, and points the finger at another who apparently is giving orders and has good reason behind the tormenters actions, as if the tormenter is following the will of another. I certainly do not suggest that God or Paradise is the justification (reason) behind the tormentors actions. Let's please not be tempted to read into it as such.

jus?ti?fy vt
1. to serve as an acceptable reason or excuse?
2. to give somebody an acceptable reason?
3. to give a reason?
6. to provide a good reason?

Encarta? World English Dictionary ? 1999 Microsoft Corporation.

Thus, your comment "You are justifying the actions or inaction because there is something you think will make it better later." reveals that it is you who are attempting to justify the tormentors actions by accusing God or a rewarding afterlife in Paradise of somehow being ultimately responsible for them. That may be an assumed and errant justification for the Jihadist, but nothing could be further from the truth. I will not be snookered into, or accused of, justifying the actions of a tormentor by claiming God or Paradise as the reason. That is a mental disorder at best.

I didn't offer Heaven as justification or reason. I offered it as an unwitting default outcome.

On NDE Life Review and Silliness

Krumple;124298 wrote:

Yeah sounds like a pretty good way to get someone to regret their actions but wouldn't it have been better to do that while they could have done something different? I mean it's like correcting someone on a mistake but never letting them correct it? That is silly.

Silly? Again Krumple, we are not puppets and God is not our Puppet Master. We have free will. God does not control us.

Aside from an abundance of apparent and consistent word of God wisdom across all world religions that we are all privy to in advance of our choices, and beyond the suggested NDE life review from the perspective of the victim, how else would you suggest that we retain our free will, not become puppets, and still be able to regret our actions before the action has been taken? Would you suggest God have created us all Clairvoyant?

Clairvoyance is the only other possibility to address your concern. And that only demonstrates the God complex of those unwilling to accept things the way they are in lieu of detailing how a God should behave and how we should have been created in the first place. Nothing will satisfy the skeptic until God acts as they deem he should, or until we are created as Gods ourselves? That my friend, is silly.

More on NDE Life Review and Perspective from the position of the Other

Krumple;124298 wrote:

Nope that is dishonest. This assumes that they actually care, but what about those who actually enjoy watching people suffer?

If they are experiencing the transgression from the point of view of the victim, then they will experience the suffering for themselves. Do you think they'll enjoy suffering themselves, and by their own hand? Do you think they'll care then?

Krumple;124298 wrote:

They would get enjoyment out of such an experience.

I thought you previously understood the premise I put forth. Now I wonder if you really understood the notion of Life Review from the perspective of the Victim. How exactly will they get enjoyment out of experiencing their own evil upon themselves?

Krumple;124298 wrote:

Not everyone experiences reality the same as you.

So true. That's exactly the point of Life Review from the perspective of the Victim. It demands we do exactly what we cannot do in this physical life, to experience reality from all perspectives, especially from the Victim's point of view.

On Buddhism and the Enlightened One

Krumple;124298 wrote:

No, you got it all wrong. No Buddhist would ever accept that definition or interpretation. You miss something

Yes, I missed the commonly bastardized Western interpretation of Buddhism. How would you interpret the story of the Student enduring wickedness and evil set upon him by others? Beyond what I've suggested, what do you think the true meaning is behind the story? Will you enlighten me please?

Krumple;124298 wrote:

?if hurting themselves was what they were doing, then they would do something to prevent them from hurting themselves.

What true Buddhist takes action against the actions of others? Is not "setting an example" the only true Buddhist methodology of Action without Acting? What Buddhism do you speak of exactly? I'm unfamiliar with this brand.

Krumple;124298 wrote:

No Buddhist stands aside for their own salvation at the expense of others.

Is that the interpretation you crafted from the story? What exactly was the benefit the Student pursued for himself? Was it pursued or was it simply the result? Did the Student set out on his journey for self benefit? How exactly was it at the expense of others? What true Buddhist does not practice "standing aside"? Is that not the entire philosophy, removing the self in order to make way for The Way? What true Buddhists stands in the way of The Way? Did not the student overcome his ego successfully in this story? What Buddhism are you speaking of?

Please enlighten me as to this strange new Buddhism you speak of. I'm very interested in all religions and philosophies and this brand you suggest is quite new to me. I'm intrigued to say the least.

On War and Catalysts

Krumple;124298 wrote:

What about who constructs the catalyst for war? What about the book that promotes going to war? Shouldn't they also be held accountable? God has been quoted from the bible?1Samuel 15:3

Deuteronomy 20:10
"When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it."

Hey! You've got some **** that belongs to me. Give it back please or I'll have to take it back. Doing anything less is allowing impurity to exist. Doing anything less is allowing evil to rule supreme. Doing anything less is accepting Entropy as Truth. Doing anything less is accepting Deception as Master.

On Apparent Inconsistency

ACB;124335 wrote:

The above two replies are inconsistent. The Student would give thanks both for being killed and for not being killed. How can killing and not killing both be right?

The Student is Enlightened. His perspective seems nonsensical to those who are not so.

The Student only sees the Good in people. That Goodness will never do him harm. He understands Evil for what it truly is? a ghost, a phantom, a specter, a toothless paper tiger? nothing more than a harmless thought from a darkened ignorant mind.

What will he fear when all he sees is Goodness?

On Benevolence and Intention

Pyrrho;124349 wrote:

You are wrong. People can kill others with the intention of sending them to heaven. So it can be benevolently motivated.

Apparent Benevolence only? not genuine. Only genuine Intentions exist in this scenario. If you wish to use "benevolence" and "intentions" synonymously, then you are correct. But they are not synonymous. Benevolence is a type of Intention, and it could easily be misguided... thus, a misguided Intention. If this synonymous relationship is possible, then your above comment could change to "People can kill others with the benevolence of sending them to heaven." When in fact it should read? "People can kill others with the erroneous benevolent intentions of sending them to heaven."

Benevolence cannot "motivate", only Intention can motivate.

Benevolence cannot even exist without an Intentional Thought from a mind to exist upon. Intentions can exist without Benevolence. But Benevolence cannot exist without Intentions.

On the Greatest Gift

Pyrrho;124349 wrote:

And if, as you claimed earlier, "Leaving this Physical Realm is the greatest gift of all", then it would be the best thing that people could possibly do.

Bingo! But that does not suggest that it is our right to claim our apparent benevolence over the free will capacity of another. And it certainly doesn't suggest that there is nothing else to do by being here in the physical realm while we wait for departure.

BTW? Death is not something that people "do", as if it is an activity. Killing is something that people "do". Death happens. It is an end result. A simple reaction to a cause. There are many causes that lead to the same reaction. But death is not an action. Cause/Reaction is not the same as Thought/Action.

Pyrrho;124349 wrote:

The simple fact is, you say things that entail things that you reject, and then you pretend that what you said does not entail those things.

Fact? Are facts acquired by skimming the surface only, never delving deeper into the definition of words or the essence of meaning underlying any given lesson?

Truth is earned my friend. And like an onion it has many layers to peel away slowly. Going straight for the core, we often cry and reject.

Pyrrho;124349 wrote:

You are not being consistent, which means that you are not only wrong, but necessarily wrong.

And skimming the surface gives you the "means" to make that claim?

Dare not the shark to dive so deeply low. Into the coldest dark waters. Tis' best to look up, tasting the soft round bellies above. Beneath the fa?ade we find ourselves cannibal. Yes, there are hungry shark eaters down here. Tis' best to look up.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple;124298 wrote:

I was questioning the guidance. It looks like you are picking and choosing what is guidance and what is not. But you are getting them all from the same source. Doesn't that seem like a little convoluted? So why are you not out killing disobedient children? I mean, isn't that god's guidance? Or how come you aren't killing those who speak against the word of god? Isn't that his guidance?

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst."
Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Are you coming to kill me now?

Ahh! Now I see where you are coming from. I haven't read that part of the Bible in years, but I do remember being appalled by the bloody-mindedness of such passages as the above. (Not to mention what God told the Isrealites to do after conquering Jericho and other places in "The Promised Land"!) This was part of why I rejected biblical religion for all of the 1970's. (I became a Pagan for much of that time.)

I now follow the Baha'i Faith. Its Founder, Baha'u'llah, teaches that when a new manifestation of God appears, He has the authority to change the laws of the previous age. All of the laws regarding stoning were abrogated when Christ said "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." The Jewish dietary laws were abrogated by a word from Christ.
That which I quoted is from the guidance for this age.

1 Reply

@1CellOfMany,

1CellOfMany;124498 wrote:

Krumple;124298 wrote:
I was questioning the guidance. It looks like you are picking and choosing what is guidance and what is not. But you are getting them all from the same source. Doesn't that seem like a little convoluted? So why are you not out killing disobedient children? I mean, isn't that god's guidance? Or how come you aren't killing those who speak against the word of god? Isn't that his guidance?

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst."
Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Are you coming to kill me now?

Ahh! Now I see where you are coming from. I haven't read that part of the Bible in years, but I do remember being appalled by the bloody-mindedness of such passages as the above. (Not to mention what God told the Isrealites to do after conquering Jericho and other places in "The Promised Land"!) This was part of why I rejected biblical religion for all of the 1970's. (I became a Pagan for much of that time.)

I now follow the Baha'i Faith. Its Founder, Baha'u'llah, teaches that when a new manifestation of God appears, He has the authority to change the laws of the previous age. All of the laws regarding stoning were abrogated when Christ said "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." The Jewish dietary laws were abrogated by a word from Christ.
That which I quoted is from the guidance for this age.

How do you reconcile that with the words of Jesus as reported in Matthew 5:

Quote:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

That explicitly states that not even a tiny part of the law is to be altered, "Till heaven and earth pass".

It also seems odd that what is good would become bad, and vice versa. Was God wrong before, and He is only now getting things right? What kind of a God makes mistakes in commanding people in correct behavior, so that someone needs to come along and change the rules?

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@Alan McDougall,

A little perspective might be applicable to that gruesome time of long ago. Deuteronomy is so misused to put forth skeptic agenda. Unfortunate. But perhaps a "shining spark of truth" will come forth after considering a "different opinion".

Deuteronomy 13:7-12 is NOT the Law of God. It is the Law of Moses. It is specifically designed to keep the nation of Israel pure unto itself. It has ZERO tolerance for anything whatsoever that would taint the nation of Israel. Anything less is to embrace impurity. It is for a specific people in a specific place and time. That place and time was the most violent extreme conditions the world has ever known.

Our minds of modernity cannot fathom those conditions. We are ignorant to apply our modern standards upon an ancient culture. Yet the skeptic consistently drags it out and claims it is applicable for todays culture. Wrong.

Israel was mild and compassionate in comparison to the other nations of that region, where brother killed brother for the crown or less, human sacrifice was encouraged with children burned alive for Baal. Idolatry was rampant. Sexual impurity was prevalent and incest was a common and accepted practice. I doubt very seriously that humanity could have survived to this day if a cleansing had not taken place. The cultures were warped and demented. We have no right to hold ancient Israel accountable to standards of modernity.

Other nations did not embrace Deuteronomy 20:10
"When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it."

But the skeptic does not consider the times of that age as any different than our own. How about the story of the drunken glutton son in Deut 21:18? It's most often foisted as authority to abuse children... right? Wrong...

Perhaps today we accept the drunken glutton... loving them and trying to help them as Christ would. But in Moses day, a drunken glutton was a security threat, the kind of citizen that sold secrets and betrayed countrymen for trinkets and trifle. Unacceptable for that time. And let's not forget he was given opportunities to change before being stoned to death.

Can anyone here name one peaceful society of that era? Even the Bhagavad-Gita demonstrates Gods (Krsna) approval of Arjuna waging war against the impurities of his entire family. If you don't like the Hebrew perspective, then try the Hindu. I'd doubt you'll find any difference there.

We would do well to put things into perspective for the time and circumstance they were engaged. Especially when so removed from our ability to associate their issues with our current lives. How so shall we be ignorantly judged by future generations six thousand years from now? Hopefully their maturity will allow them to keep it in context without the need to put forth quote mining to support a skeptic agenda.

We can't even accept common practices among the diversity of our current cultures we share today. How then shall we expect to accept those of six thousand years ago?

We are so judgmental and intolerant of anything and everything that is not our own.

---------- Post added 02-02-2010 at 07:45 PM ----------

Pyrrho;124505 wrote:

How do you reconcile that with the words of Jesus as reported in Matthew 5:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus was speaking of the Law of God, not the Law of Moses. His fulfillment of that Law was presented as a new commandment... to Love one another. His life fulfilled the Law of God. Apparently the only person who ever lived that was able to live his entire life without breaking one of the 10 Commandments.

In doing so, he exposed the corruption of the Jewish state with temple prostitutes and a leadership that grew rich from the sins of men being paid off with money. That corruption was a direct result of not keeping the nation of Israel pure unto itself, having embraced the practices of other cultures.

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@QuinticNon,

How about the idea that God will take away some of our freewill and create another universe where only peace and love exists, clean up the mess and start all over again

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-create-evil.html

Question: "Did God create evil?"

Answer: At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a "thing" like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good.

For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good.

One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a "thing" that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, "Does cold exist?" the answer would likely be "yes." However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want "robots" that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their "programming." God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

As finite human beings, we can never fully understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from a holy, eternal perspective. We look at things from a sinful, earthly, and temporal perspective.

Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn't He just create us all and leave us in heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? These questions cannot be adequately answered this side of eternity.

What we can know is whatever God does is holy and perfect and ultimately will glorify Him. God allowed for the possibility of evil in order to give us a true choice in regards to whether we worship Him. God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.

0 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

In Dutch we say:'het Kwaad is al geschied" It would mean an acceptance of Evil as a manifestation in the past. It's up to us to fix harmony againMa, with the help and inspiration of our religions, social organizations and most of all the joint efforts of the citizens.

Maybe evil (or our perception of it) stimulates people to work together.

1 Reply

@Pepijn Sweep,

Below is a little story I wrote about good and evil

Eternal battle of good agains evil

Below is my view on the origin of Evil.

Evilian the Lord of Darkness lurked in the abysmal dark

These two absolutes took all primeval inexhaustible energy of existence and with great cosmic superstrings, formulated the very fabric of reality.

The good portion of the absolutes then became aware that he was separate and completely different in character from Evil. He named himself "God", and in the utter loneliness of the deep, said "let there be light", and he became pure light, and so there was now light in the darkness of the deep. God then moved upward, out of the darkness of the deep, to separate himself from darkness and Evil forever

God then existed in the pure light of love, which had emanating out from him, filling his own infinite domain, a place he called heaven! He was one but a unique unity of three - manifestations. These are spirit (God the father- spirit), mind (God - the holy ghost), and the creative word (God -Light Being Christ). The word spoke and created countless universes. His light expanded outwards to fill them all with his infinite love, which called the Holy Spirit. They sparkled with his eternal beauty.

God was omni-everything, within his infinite domain of light and goodness, except for one thing, "God could not "lie" and still be God". It was, therefore, impossible for God to lie.

God was alone within his domain of heaven and creation. No other intelligent beings yet existed with the unity, in the light. He was alone and lonely and so he created out of his own self and essence, uncountable numbers of vast intelligent holy great angels and beings. He sent them forth to fill and control his domain of unimaginable huge countless universes. These beings because they were made from his own essence and self were just like him and were eternal and could never cease to exist. Their purpose was too eternally to serve, obey him, and be his loving companions forever. God did not give them a free will, as it was their purpose to serve and obey God, without question.

Of all the great angels and beings he had created, Lucifer, Michael and Gabriel were the mightiest, greatest most beautiful and intelligent. They were each given different, but equally important tasks in assisting God with the control of his domain of the "existence of light and love"
.
The Evil absolute also became aware and continued to exist in the darkness of the deep. It was satisfied to lurk there and remain in the darkness of the deep void, waiting to put out the light of goodness and let Evil control all. It was also (three in one) and called itself, "lord of chaos". Its names were, (Evilian - unholy father spirit), (Evilian- the unholy ghost). ), (Evilian - the Evil -word). It had not yet made anything and was content to be alone.

Unlike God it could not create true life and this was one of its great limitations in the coming battle. The only life-like thing it was able to create, after an almost eternity of trying, was half alive like thing we call a virus.

Unlike God, Evilian was only omni-everything, within his own Evil dark domain and subject to entropy and ultimate decay of all matter in the deep blackness of his hell. He would then have to ultimately face the horror of existing alone in the black darkness of his own thoughts in the utter nothingness of hell forever.

In order to avoid his awful ultimate fate he would have to find a way to sustain his dark existence the only way to do this would be by drawing from Gods inexhaustible energy source into himself.

Unlike God he had limitations.

One - it was impossible for it, "to enter the light of God". Darkness cannot penetrate light!

Two- "it was impossible for it to tell the "truth" it was absolute - lie - and in him was no truth whatsoever.

He been totally evil could not comprehend the concept of truth. Thus he needed a being that could both, lie and tell the truth, in his battle against God. He could then use the almost infinite power of "deception" in his battle against God. Thus he decided to reach out with his Evil mind to all of Gods creatures, to see if he could find a candidate there. He desperately needed God's inexhaustible energy to counter the chaos or entropy of his dark domain.

Evilians Evil black mind then, reached upwards, into the light, to seek out any weakness in Gods kingdom. After an almost eternity of he found one almost infinite minute possibility of creating a wrong thought in the mind of one of

Gods perfect greatest angels. this almost infinitely small tiny minute possibility, was that somewhere deep within the mind this great angel was the almost infinitely remote chance that he could become proud and vane, if subjected constantly and perpetually, over eons an eons of time, to the right temptation and conditioning.

Evilian carefully chose his victim angel, as this angel was one of the three greatest beings in existence, besides the unity of God and Evilian himself. The name of the candidate angel was Lucifer and he would be of almost infinite use to Evilian, if he could affect his downfall, due to the fact that Lucifer knew God's mind and his goodness. Something that was impossible for Evilian too ever comprehend even if he was given infinite eternity.

Evilians mind reached out and spoke to the mind of Lucifer. "Come" Evilian, said to Lucifer, "I would like to show you something wonderful, beyond your wildest imagination". Here is a picture of yourself, look how much greater, mightier, and beautiful.

God has made you, than all the rest of his creation" indeed is you not as mighty and beautiful as God himself"? He lied!

Lucifer refused to listen to Evilian, who persisted continually with his exaggerated false Evil lies, temptations and dialogue, with Lucifer, for countless eons and eons, never ceasing to persist and exaggerate Lucifer's greatness and beauty.

After an almost eternity of thinking and contemplating Evilians words to him he began to absorb and contemplate all the lies he had been told.

Lucifer then allowed into his mind the following disastrous thoughts and became "vain and proud and said'. ' I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will also sit upon the mount of the congregations, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; 'I will be like the 'most high' (the ultimate blasphemy).

God at once knew the Evil thoughts that had come into the heart and mind of Lucifer and had to cast him out of heaven. The word of God, said I see Lucifer fall, like lighting down into the utter darkness of the deep void, to serve his new master Evilian.

Evilian changed Lucifer's name to "lord Satan" and referred to him as the Deceiver, because Satan could both lie and comprehend the truth and so Lucifer became Evilians great weapon of utter deception
.
And so the eternal battles of light against darkness, good, against Evil began.
God mused for a moment, and then created Romyserynal, our universe of goodness and light. The primeval mind of this universe was formulated and matured by God.

In an explosion of unthinkable proportions, expanding outwards at almost infinite speed, into incomprehensible nothingness. Atomic fusion lights (suns) condensed from radiant energy, forming into colossal mass matter families of energy and light, called galaxies, which raced away from absolute goodness, towards the omega point moment.

Our universe was born and emerged out of nothingness

Solardrianian, a sun of this universe, was then also created by God. She bathed her eight greater children, called planets, with warm love and light giving light, but only one child, Terra lived and became full of carbon organic based life, on her surface.

He was the most beautiful of all jeweled sparkling blue water worlds created by God. He to love cherished and sustained her.

God then said, "let us create man" and so they did, in the spiritual and mental image of God. God then created a companion for the man he had named Adam, her name was Eve. God created perfect mortal bodies for each of them, suitable for existing on earth.

God then placed them in the most beautiful garden called Eden. When he created them he made them totally innocent, but not perfect, giving them the free will to choose good over Evil. God allowed them to do anything, except to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God told them if they disobeyed him in this only one forbidden commandment, they would surely die.
.
Evilian sent the Deceiver in the form of a snake (Lord Satan) to Terra to tempt eve or Adam to disobey God. In this he was successful, by convincing them that God had told them a lie.

This was the only thing impossible for God to do. Because they believed Satan and not God the result was all the troubles down the long history of humanity on Terra and humanities long continual battle with their now new natures of good and evil.

Humanities depraved history is the result of humanity not believing God and their disobedience of him and listening and believed Satan (Deceiver's) temptation and blasphemous lie, instead of Gods truth
.
Thousand of years later on Terra, God incarnated his word (Light Being) into human form. As a child on Terra he slept, dreamed and across the void, vivid thoughts and words came to him in a vision of the night, revealing the battle that was soon to come, explaining all. The character of this word was light and love now in the darkness of the world Terra had become since the downfall of humanity. His was the perfect altruist. God called him Altruisman (Light Being)

An Evil child, also slept on a colossal metal planet, revolving around a dark sun in one of the countless awful dark universes, Evilian had made, this Evil child, who was the angel Lucifer, now "prince of darkness" "The Deceiver, to conform with his new character by Evilian. He dreamed with anticipation of the coming battle.

Lucifer changed from an angel of Gods Light, into a Demon of Evilians Darkness

The Deceiver, when he was still Lucifer had known goodness by been in God's presence for almost an eternity. Now he also knew absolute Evil, from the mind of his new Evil master Evilian.

These two natures he now knew would be of great assistance to Evilian, as he Evilian was pure undiluted Evil and it was, therefore impossible for this being to ever be able to comprehend the workings of a mind of totally perfect, good and holy being like God.

But Lucifer, or as he was now known as Satan, had been exposed to both Good and Evil! And was now totally under Evilians control.

Evilian referred to Satan as "the prince of darkness or Lord Deceiver. He had become totally Evil, like his master Evilian, "but remembered in his mind, the goodness he had experienced when he was still serving God" Thus he became the "Ultimate Deceiver".

Solardrianian, Terra's sun, mighty magnetic plasma fusion mind, formed great eyes on her surface, reaching outwards to the edge of her universe, searching for the coming Evilian and the Deceiver and touched the malignant dark Evil horror their black minds.

Solardrianian retracted her mind from theirs in alarm and horror and fed the data, code, and information she had gathered, in that awful moment, into her magnetic mind, deep within her fusion core. The Deceiver Satan felt the gentle probe and awoke! His dark lord, "lord of darkness Evilian" then revealed his Evil plan to overcome and defeat his eternal enemy God and banish Light and Goodness forever from the infinite cosmos.

Separated by an infinite distance, somewhere and somewhen, in the ocean of nothingness, the fluxes of colossal magnetic minds intertwined in the infinite battle of thought. Magnetic monopoles grasped, twisted, and pushed within the great gravity arms of the conflicting two mighty intelligent eternal absolutes, far beyond mere mortal man comprehension, were the eternal battle. In the iron grip of relentless entropy, proton decay continued, which would result in the cold heat death of the loser.

Evil Lord- Evilian, the only other eternal being reached out to good Solardrianian (the sun), of our universe with his utmost Evil great mind consumed, with one thought. Destruction of Solardrianian, our universe our blessed sun and her beautiful world Terra. He would try, using entropy to suck all the radiant energy out of our universe, whose name was good beautiful Romyserynal, of light, into his malignant self and attempt to destroy all life and thought from our blessed universe into his dark black mind. Leaving only dark cold dead emptiness. (If he could!).

Solardrianian the sun spoke to Terra. Terra searched her surface and found the Altruisman in his sleep. She told him of the existence of eternal Evilian and his equally evil son, who existed in one of Evilians, universes and lived, on a dark Evil metal world.

His former name was great archangel Lucifer, who had fallen to Evilians temptation and lies and become Evil and dark and now referred to as the Deceiver, by his new master and he was now under the control and he worshiped, the dark lord Evilian.

Just like his new master, the Deceiver (Lucifer or Satan) or by any name you wish to call this beast, had become totally depraved and evil.

Altruisman awoke in alarm at this awful revelation. The final battle of minds would soon begin. The outcome would decide the fate of all of existence forever. Monstrous malignant.

Evilian and Deceiver battling against majestic might and minds of God and Altruisman the word. The prize of this final battle was victory of light over darkness, good over Evil, and the ultimate complete control of all existence.

The two eternals, God and Evilian agreed to place a wall of mirrors between them in the void. Altruism's the Warrior of God task was to know exactly which of the words or pictures reflected on the walls of the mirrors, were truth or false! Only by looking at the words or pictures displayed on the two walls.

God Said to Altruisman
[CENTER][CENTER]"Altruisman, you must establish the absolute truth"[/CENTER]
[CENTER]"said the lord God Yahweh to him" this is necessary in order to obtain absolute victory over Deceiver and his Evil lord Evilian".[/CENTER][/CENTER]

Altruisman (Light Being) replied to God his father, saying, "Lord God Father Spirit of light and love, the task you have given is impossible for me to carry out successfully". The Deceiver can both lie and Tell the Truth How in all eternity will I ever under, this handicap, in all eternity to know for certain, what is true or what is false on the wall of mirrors?"

Heaven stood still while God thought
[CENTER][CENTER]Great Neurons of Light within the mind of God, known by mere mortal man as universes, pulsed, expanded, contracted, vibrated with the blazing glorious spectrums of the beautiful wonder of his infinite mind. [/CENTER]
[CENTER]Suns mere quantum particles in Gods colossal great mind flared up and died folding the very fabric of reality. Existence trembled and universes knitted infinitely into the 24 dimensions of the fabrics of reality.[/CENTER][/CENTER]

God then became silent. Existence became still again.
A moment of eternity past and God knew! "

God ceased to think and spoke, ''do this" "do that", and "all was done"!

Existence was still again. God rested from his muse and waited!

God then took Altruisman into the deepest recesses of his inner most being and enlightened his beautiful soul, with the greatest weapons against the Evilian the Evil Lord and his Demon Child Satan.

Truth, Light. Love, Life and Peace will put all Evil into the Bottomless pit called Hell

Altruisman my son said God, I bring you again back to before your birth and expand my everlasting essence in you, and henceforth you shall be known as the Christ. Your name is now; Light Being Christ the only True Altruist!

Love will overcome all challenges the of Evil Deceiver and his Lord Evilian and all his disciples.

From the birth as my incarnation of the suffering Messiah, two thousand and twelve years must pass according to the Julian calendar

Evilian and the Deceiver are the ultimate selfish ones their eternal fate is so terrible that even I God cannot and will not look into this place of utter desolation and horror. Tremble all that think about this place

Mine"? "What is your name"? To his question he got only silence and he knew for certain this being, in his garden, was the Deceiver or devil in disguise.

In the void the following words continued on the wall of mirrors:
"I am the light bringer" "I have been appointed to help you understand the coming revelation" "fear not for I am with you, my name is truth." trust me always". Altruisman (Light Being), replied, "You are the ultimate deceptive-one; I do not believe your lies. I speak only to my father God.

The finale was near, in eternal night stars cowered; Romersenal (our beautiful universe) comforted them and bathed them with strands of magnificent opalescence, renewing them all in shimmering phosphorescent glorious myriad colors. They flared and blazed; now prepared for the battle against Evilian and the Deceiver (Satan).

Altruisman, who was Light Being, returned to Terra and to the blessed caretaker of Terra's most beautiful garden, his mortal father. "Father tells beloved mother that I have been called away by God (the absolute) to do battle for him against of Evilian and the Deceiver". I will surely return." a hush fell on all of Terra. They knew then that the final war between good and Evil was about to begin!

Evilian and Deceiver gloated in their power and attacked our universe. Screaming blotted out the battle hymns of God's universes. All existence shook as God twisted and weaved the cords of reality into a newly formed 72 dimensional fabrics of existence.

Tyranny attempted to reign in Romersenal, the universes colossal body. Deceiver gripped Terra's mother, the sun, attempting to draw her into his Evil self to consume her in the relentless cold death of entropy. Proton death began! Altruisman/God resisted and the Deceiver withdrew to consider another tactic
.
The two lords of existence the absolutes, commanded, Deceiver, and the Altruisman "come into the neutral courtyard in the void between the domains of God and Evilian". Let your two minds together with those descend into the garden of Terra, where you must battle it out and so avoid the complete annihilation of all existence. Wormholes that connected universes pulsed with thought. The battle in the minds of began.

The Evil dragon son the Deceiver, projecting chaotic thoughts of mindless madness at Altruisman. Shafts of purple dazzle blobs of red blood, absolute hate in black non-worlds. Nightmares of negative hate. Blue black darkness attempted to melt down all that is good. Impossible almost infinite power attempted to suck in all life out of Gods universes. the Deceiver attempted by relentless blackness of ultimate heat death of dark entropy to destroy all that was good and was met with the almost infinite powerful resistance of the mind of the Godman - Altruisman and failed. Galaxies had started bleeding white energy into the cosmic lips of Evilian, but was compensated and renewed by God's infinite supply of energy.

God and Altruisman went into the horror of the Evil minds of Evilian and the Deceiver for one-trillionth of a peco second moment and knew their future plans for the battle. Altruisman then became aware of the true enormity of the undiluted black malignant Evil of Deceiver's mind, and withdrew in great alarm.

Altruisman (Light Being) awaked again in the void and observed a being of most beautiful light standing and projecting on the wall of mirrors these words, "remember me?" fear not for I am with you even unto the end of the world''. "I am the truth the life and the way". Light Being, the altruist pondered!

Who are you? Cried Altruisman. Call me "light-giver" or "truth righteousness love and goodness". Follow me into victory beloved son"
Words continued to appear on the wall of mirrors, someone wrote to Altruisman thus; "I must allow the contrary for mortals to progress into my true goodness". "Be vigilant-be aware my son". "Without good you cannot comprehend Evil", "without love you will not know hate". The words continued below:

The eternal battle is in the very mind of God. You the Godlike man the Altruisman, will overcome the dark side of Gods duality mind by his testimony and enable God to be perfectly good, kind and merciful. All his Evil side will be to thrust into the black hole and forgotten into the horror of hell of nothingness forever.

Then the words blanked out from the wall of mirrors!
Light Being the true altruist did not believe what he had seen written on the wall of mirrors, in the void so he returned to Terra the earth to speak to his father God.

Thus spoke God into the mind of Light Being his son, the altruist." I God now tell humanity that the love of Light Being will conquers all. I tell you mortal man, seek me while I still may be found my patience is at an end, I God am about to change my plan, if you do not listen now and obey. I will destroy your planet Terra; it is very very late. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of a living God? No more options obey or hell".

Altruisman fell asleep on Terra and began to really wonder, for the first time, who was really communicating with him from the wall of mirrors, as some of what he had read there began to conflict with his concept of God. His knew purpose was to outwit the son of the malignant beast Evilian and the Deceiver. So he Light Being asked God who had been projecting to him on the wall of mirrors in the void and got the following answer:

God informed Light Being the (Altruisman), that only he formally knew his enemy's true name. This things name means the deceiver, who was in truth "Evilian the beast".

A virus called a lie was the cause of all sorrow in all of existence. Light Being the Altruisman is infused by God's light. Light Being/God will defeat Evilian whose true name is "the beast or monster" the great archangel Michael will war with God/Light Being with his truth. The selfish would be ultimately be defeated by selflessness or altruism.

The lord Light Being observed clearly now that all communications from the wall of mirrors had been false, just like he had suspected. It had been all lies and originated in the deceptive mind of the Deceiver (Satan) and his master the beast Evilian.

All those soft thoughts that had came directly into his mind, had originated from a beautiful being God his father who emanating compassionate love and peace, he knew without doubt that he had been speaking to the God of truth. His father in heaven
.
Altruisman then said I know my name is Light Being and with God/me will, defeat Evilian and Deceiver in the end, their awful fate is now sealed!!!!!!!

Light Being said he had to descend to planet earth (Terra) to complete a task and then he would inspire a "new testament" between humanity and God to be compiled to guide mortal man. The outcome of the battle would be written in the book of revelations. Where he and Michael and Gods holy angels will finally an utterly defeat Evilian, and his Evil son the Deceiver, who is Satan or also called the devil and the false prophet the beast.
[CENTER][CENTER]The prime cause of all evil[/CENTER]
[CENTER]Is[/CENTER]
[CENTER]That[/CENTER]
[CENTER]Lucifer believed [/CENTER]
[CENTER]A[/CENTER]
[CENTER]Lie!!!!!![/CENTER][/CENTER]

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan why did god create us with the potential to commit evil deeds. These deeds come in small and large amounts. Certain events like the killing of millions of Jews was , is the result of this failing, this ability we have been given. No amount of story telling or altering the perspective of god can adequately explain this allowance this predilection that was foreseen by god. It did not come as any great surprise our evil intention our creation was invented by him. If he was a lesser god who did not realise the enormity of creation, I could excuse him but he knew, it was foretold but he continued and continues. Sorry Alan this god is not for me.

2 Replies

@xris,

Wikepeadia

Zoroastrianism is a religion and philosophy based on the teachings of prophet Zoroaster (aka Zarathustra, in Avestan). The term Zoroastrianism is, in general usage, essentially synonymous with Mazdaism, i.e. the worship of Ahura Mazda, exalted by Zoroaster as the supreme divine authority.

In Zoroastrianism, the Creator Ahura Mazda is all good, and no evil originates from Him. Thus, in Zoroastrianism good and evil have distinct sources, with evil (druj) trying to destroy the creation of Mazda (asha), and good trying to sustain it. Mazda is not immanent in the world, and His creation is represented by the Amesha Spentas and the host of other Yazatas, through whom the works of God are evident to humanity, and through whom worship of Mazda is ultimately directed. The most important texts of the religion are those of the Avesta, of which a significant portion has been lost, and mostly only the liturgies of which have survived. The lost portions are known of only through references and brief quotations in the later works of (primarily) the 9th-11th centuries.

Zoroastrianism is of great antiquity.[1] In some form, it served as the national- or state religion of a significant portion of the Iranian peoples for many centuries before it was gradually marginalized by Islam from the 7th century onwards. The political power of the pre-Islamic Iranian dynasties lent Zoroastrianism immense prestige in ancient times, and some of its leading doctrines were adopted by other religious systems.

It has no major theological divisions (the only significant schism is based on calendar differences), but it is not monolithic. Modern-era influences have a significant impact on individual/local beliefs, practices, values and vocabulary, sometimes complementing tradition and enriching it, but sometimes also displacing tradition entirely.

1 Reply

Why does God permit evil????

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