@prothero,
prothero;105674 wrote:At the time the genesis story was written, it was quite natural to assume that the earth was the center of the universe and that man was the crown of creation.. The ancients had no idea about the age of the universe, the age of the earth and the long climb of life through evolution to man. One could also rationally muse that the universe was created by a god easily and in a matter of a few days it is no longer rational or reasonable to make these assumptions.
At the time the Greeks were musing about god or the gods, it was quite reasonable to assume the universe was eternal and that the heavens were composed of changeless perfection (perfect spheres, perfect orbits). It was also natural to attribute such changeless perfection attributes to god (omnipotence, omniscience, immutability, impassibility, etc.). We now know Greek perceptions of the nature of the heavens and the universe are in error and to continue to assign these attributes to your notion or conception of god is no longer logical. The basis for thinking the divine has these attributes (i.e. the nature of the heavens) no longer exists as a modern conception of the world.
We now know that the universe is billions of years old (14+). The earth is billions of years old (4.5+) and that life has struggled for billions of years just to survive. We also know that life has nearly been wiped off the face of the earth by mass extinction events (basaltic eruptions, snowball earth, meteor strikes) not just once but several times. I do not know how or why one continues to cling to the notion that god is omnipotent or omniscience given this history and knowledge.
There may be a god or there may not be a god. One thing should be clear. Creation is hard work. It takes billions of years, terrible setbacks, and hangs on tenuously to life and experience. So God may be the source of possibility, the ground of being or the essence of existence. God may be the reason there is life, mind, order, experience at all. However there is absolutely no reason, given our knowledge of the nature of the universe (as opposed to the ancients and the Greeks) to think that God is omnipotent or omniscient. Look at the convoluted argument and logic one has to use to justify the suffering of one child much less the mass extinction of 90% of all life on the planet. My suggestion is a simple one. Rethink your conception of the divine and how the divine works in the world. Omnipotence and omniscience are theological mistakes. The big O's are the product of a world view that has all but vanished in the age of modern science.
Religious conceptions at variance with your other conceptions of the nature of the world and how the world works create cognitive dissonance and lead to absurd argument. If the religious conception of god is not modified to mesh with our overall sense of the nature of the world and how the world works, that religion will die. It is a new axial age.
God does not "permit" evil. Sh---t happens.
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I understand that god evolves in mans mind as one problem of his credibility becomes tenuous another image appears. My point is that any description you care to provide me with has the same basic failings. I would love to find a description that satisfies my logic. I can assure you I have looked for more than half a century, with little or no success and have come to the conclusion if he exists, he is beyond our comprehension.
The real problem lies with the fact none of the believers i debate with will be constant with their description. They modify his appearance failing to realise they are constantly contradicting themselves on the whole package of their image. It becomes bogged down in counter arguments and constant realigning the image to fit the argument. If you have a defined creator who has the power to create the universe, any weakness he is excused of must be recognised. If he has the power of thought then he has the power of constant communication and he appears to lack communicative skills and very little benevolence to his creation. In my humble opinion your all only too willing to accept a failed image of a god who if he exists could rise above these silly descriptions.
---------- Post added 11-25-2009 at 05:06 AM ----------
Alan McDougall;105744 wrote:Xris try to imagine a world where nothing bad or evil ever happens or is allowed to happen, cold is bad for some, hot is bad for others, love is bad for some, hate is not permitted,you are not allowed to swim because you are not designed to swim and you might drown. To prevent you suffering every aspect of your life no matter how unlikely must be controlled to avoid it. I could go on a list many factors that would go to show under these conditions our lives will become one bland bleak unchallenging existence
The child will not drown, no one will die before a hundred, is it this type of idyllic existence what you want?
I don't want idyllic conditions, I want to know why a child died and your god had the ability to watch and do nothing about it? Life is life, it has no reasoning if you place a god into it who cares little about the suffering of a young child. Who with any modicum of feelings could say it is part of my master plan, i will stand back and let it occur..horrocks Alan horrors. I would deny humanities existence if it could stop one child's suffering, it is never worth it, never.
