Why does God permit evil????

@Caroline,

Caroline;104469 wrote:

Free will is where you choose what to do, if we didn't have it we'd be like robots. I don't know what God is if it exists. If God does exist then I believe that he has no power over us just like the next person has no power over us, we have the right to chose, it also helps with basic survival, we chose to eat our greens for example and so on.

---------- Post added 11-19-2009 at 10:30 AM ----------

No he is not omnipotent if God exists, nothing has that power. We have our own power.

So you don't believe in god and if he does his not omnipotent. So im confused Caroline, why are you proposing this god has any attributes? We are not talking about life without the belief in god Caroline we are debating, if god permits evil. Now you decide if he exists or if you wish to argue for his existence because I have no idea what side of the fence you are sitting.

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@Alan McDougall,

I say I don't know if God exists but if he does then he is in us and in nature and that we have the right to choose, noone or anything can take that right away. What is your definition of God, because if you say he permits evil then you must believe in him yourself?

1 Reply

@Caroline,

Caroline;104476 wrote:

I say I don't know if God exists but if he does then he is in us and in nature and that we have the right to choose, noone or anything can take that right away. What is your definition of God, because if you say he permits evil then you must believe in him yourself?

I have no definition of god, I have no idea but i do know what he is not.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;104511 wrote:

I have no definition of god, I have no idea but i do know what he is not.

And what is that? Just out of interest.

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@Alan McDougall,

I do have to ask this question, not to evangalise or try to convert anybody, but just because it seems to me very basic to the debate.

When Xris says (of God)

xris;104456 wrote:

When did he make himself clear to us mortals?

is there any acknowledgement of the life and teachings of Jesus? Because, according to legend, this is exactly "when he made himself clear to us mortals".

So - is there anything in 'the myth of Jesus', or is it all just made up?

Just interested, that's all.

2 Replies

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;104529 wrote:

is there any acknowledgement of the life and teachings of Jesus? Because, according to legend, this is exactly "when he made himself clear to us mortals"..

and Moses, prophets and angles brought messages to the Jewish people- The Old Testament
Mohhamed to the Arabians- The Quran
Joseph Smith to the Mormons- the book of Morman
Jesus to the gentiles- The New Testatment
If God speaks to man through revelation and scripture, the message is losing some clarity in translation and interpretation.
In any event in scripture, in early tradition there is no clear cut assertion that god is all powerful and all knowing. Those descriptions enter the tradition after the fusion of Greek philosophical notions of perfection with Christian tradition. We know now that the Greek notions of celestial perfection, perfect spheres and perfect orbits are entirely mistaken. Those conceptions of the divine attributes have no basis in scripture, revelation, reason or experience.

Liberal Chrisitans would see Jesus as a powerful manifestation of the divine or emmanation of spirit but not necessarily the only unique and saving revelation.

The problem of evil hinges on insisting that the divine has certain attributes (omnipotence and omniscience) and there is little basis or reason for insisting or believing that the divine does have those attributes.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;104467 wrote:

Why can i not get a straight answer from some very easy questions?

Whats free will Caroline and how are you so certain its a gift from god?

Alan is your god omnipotent, is yours Caroline?

Do you think this god knows everything or is he less than perfect?

My God is Omniall, maybe free will is not a gift but a burden. God seems to have looked on while we immature humans developed the atomic bomb. As an analogy would I allow my little three year old grandson to roam around my home with a loaded machine gun, no I would Not?

Perhaps we have overlooked the possibility of hell as a punishment after we die and pass over. Maybe all of us will one day stand before a just and holy God and give account for our actions, both good and evil. I hope Hitler had to undergo that as a just punishment

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@prothero,

prothero;104580 wrote:

The problem of evil hinges on insisting that the divine has certain attributes (omnipotence and omniscience) and there is little basis or reason for insisting or believing that the divine does have those attributes.

That is true. Specifically, omnipotence, and all-goodness. If we don't think that God has those attributes, then the traditional problem of evil vanishes. The traditional problem of evil is the problem of reconciling those attributes with the fact of evil. But it does not consist in avoiding the problem, by denying there is one. Put it this way: if God is omnipotent and all-good, how can there be evil. Your answer is, there can't be. Something's got to go. But then you are saying the problem can have no solution. But that is not a solution.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;104619 wrote:

That is true. Specifically, omnipotence, and all-goodness. If we don't think that God has those attributes, then the traditional problem of evil vanishes. The traditional problem of evil is the problem of reconciling those attributes with the fact of evil. But it does not consist in avoiding the problem, by denying there is one. Put it this way: if God is omnipotent and all-good, how can there be evil. Your answer is, there can't be. Something's got to go. But then you are saying the problem can have no solution. But that is not a solution.

The opening thread was about the problem of evil in general "why does god permit"?. It was not a statement about the "traditional problem of evil" and did not constrain the conversation in that manner

You are approaching the problem as a problem in logic. I am suggested it is a religious problem. A major cause of disbelief and loss of faith. I am further suggesting the entire problem is based on a misconception of the nature of the divine and divine action. It is a solution to the general problem of evil as experienced and as questioned in the OT.

Once the traditional problem has been exhausted in the thread perhaps someone will consider questioning the premises that created the problem in the first place. The God of early tradition and scripture is neither omnipotent or omniscient. That conception of God is being questioned in twentieth century religious philosophy and theology. God does not "permit" evil. Evil is inherent in the material world and the res natura "the nature of things".

1 Reply

@prothero,

prothero;104648 wrote:

The opening thread was about the problem of evil in general "why does god permit"?. It was not a statement about the "traditional problem of evil" and did not constrain the conversation in that manner

You are approaching the problem as a problem in logic. I am suggested it is a religious problem. A major cause of disbelief and loss of faith. I am further suggesting the entire problem is based on a misconception of the nature of the divine and divine action. It is a solution to the general problem of evil as experienced and as questioned in the OT.

Once the traditional problem has been exhausted in the thread perhaps someone will consider questioning the premises that created the problem in the first place. The God of early tradition and scripture is neither omnipotent or omniscient. That conception of God is being questioned in twentieth century religious philosophy and theology. God does not "permit" evil. Evil is inherent in the material world and the res natura "the nature of things".

It is a religious preblem, and one that is a problem in logic. The problem is that there appears to be an inconsistent triad of propositions: (1) God is all-powerful. (2) God is all-good. (3) Evil exists. To say that (1) (2) and (3) form an inconsistent triad is just to say that all three cannot be true together. So it seems. The question is whether it is not possible to show that the appearance of inconsistency is false. Leibniz did, I think, show that, by arguing that if we suppose that all evils are logically necessary evils, and that God is bound by the laws of logic, then, this logical problem of evil is soluble. It is callled "logical problem of evil" because even if Leibniz's solution works, all that it shows is that there is no inconsistency in the triad. Namely, that it is possible for all three propositions to be true. However (and this is a big however) just because the logical problem is solved, it does not follow that the problem of evil is solved. And, perhaps, that is what you are getting at. For what is possibly true need not be true. Evil may be consistent with goodness and power if all evils are necessary evils, and if every good is worth the evil necessary for it. But that, of course, seems to be unlikely. In any case, there seems to be no way of knowing whether or not it is so. So, what is possibly true may, very well, be false.

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@jeeprs,

jeeprs;104529 wrote:

I do have to ask this question, not to evangalise or try to convert anybody, but just because it seems to me very basic to the debate.

When Xris says (of God)

is there any acknowledgement of the life and teachings of Jesus? Because, according to legend, this is exactly "when he made himself clear to us mortals".

So - is there anything in 'the myth of Jesus', or is it all just made up?

Just interested, that's all.

If you think the presentation of Jesus solves our mortal fears and reconciles our doubts about the ethics of our existance then Id be pleased to hear them. I'm not doubting the message of jesus as very constructive and informative but it hardly reveals life's secrets, does it?

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@Alan McDougall,

No, I don't want to evangalise for Christianity. It is just the statement keeps coming up 'we know nothing of God', 'It is all speculative' or various other statements to that effect. But according to Christians, Christ does indeed 'solve your mortal fears' and reconcile you with God. That's what it is for. Now as I said, I don't want to evangalise for Christianity, and don't identify myself as Christian. But it seems very odd that much of this debate is happening as if Christianity never existed.

1 Reply

@jeeprs,

Wikapedia

Spinoza

In Western philosophy, evil is usually limited to doing harm or damage to an object or creature. Socrates (in Plato's early work) argued that which we call evil is merely ignorance and that good is that which everyone desires. Benedict de Spinoza said that the difference between good and evil is merely one of personal inclinations: "So everyone, by the highest right of

Nature, judges what is good and what is evil, considers his own advantage according to his own temperament... ."[2]

The duality of 'good versus evil' is expressed, in some form or another, by many cultures.[citation needed] Those who believe in the duality theory of evil believe that evil cannot exist without good, nor good without evil, as they are both objective states and opposite ends of the same scale.

Carl Jung

Carl Jung, in his book Answer to Job and elsewhere, depicted evil as the "dark side of God". People tend to believe evil is something external to them, because they project their shadow onto others. But from a psychological point of view to be evil is to refuse to acknowledge the weaknesses in one's own personality.[citation needed] Jung interpreted the story of Jesus as an account of God facing his own shadow.[3]

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@Alan McDougall,

very clever indeed. I love the last sentence. Freud saw Christianity as mankind's collective unconscious Oedipal complex raging against 'The Father' ('The Future of an Illusion').

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@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;101695 wrote:

Hi,

Did God create evil as a way of realising goodness??

I don't believe that God created evil. I think that humans choose to be evil. I think evil is entirely a human attribute.

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God is supreme and the ultimate in accountability for good and evil is his (The buck really really stops with him)

Why should God be accountable for what other people do? That doesn't make sense to me.

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Why did God stand back and do nothing during the holocuast?

Because we have free will.

If God was to intervene every time humans caused a problem, we would be mindless puppets under the control of God.

God gives us the ability to change things. And, if you'll recall, we did. We humans put a stop to holocaust because we exercised our free will to do so.

Quote:

Why does God permit natural catastrophes like the tsunami that killed 250 thousand people recently?

Why does God create an entity like a virus that does nothing but kill its host?

[/B]I don't believe that God directly influences the natural world in the way that you perceive. Maybe God has no control over such things. Did that occur to you? Your questions assume that God is all-powerful and directly causes all things to occur or "permits" things to occur.

No offense intended to the original poster, but I find these kind of questions sort of silly. Many people apparently seem to think that the only reason God exists is to fix all the problems of humanity.

I wonder if the people who ask these kind of questions have really looked at the full implications of what they are asking. Do people really want God to control everything that happens in the world?

I certainly don't nor would I want to associate with such a being. If God was to go around controling everything we do and experience, then we would be robots with no free will whatsoever. We might as well be in "The Matrix" if that's the case. No thanks.

--IntoTheLight--

4 Replies

@IntoTheLight,

Why is it those who choose to refer to any given god or attempt at describing him either refuse to answer pertinent questions or fall back on the usual rhetoric reply "we don't really know him"

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@IntoTheLight,

IntoTheLight;104812 wrote:

I don't believe that God created evil. I think that humans choose to be evil. I think evil is entirely a human attribute.

I don't think you actually believe this, instead it is something you want to believe. Is evil a product of having free will? If it is, then by all means god would lack free will. If not then god has the capacity to commit evil but instead chooses not to do it. But that would mean evil is an attribute of god just not exercised. The only other option is that god has no free will and couldn't do any evil what so ever. But that would mean god is limited.

IntoTheLight;104812 wrote:

Why should God be accountable for what other people do? That doesn't make sense to me.

In two ways, both by knowing the result or by inactivity.

A. If you owned two dogs and knew that if you placed them in the same yard together, that they would fight and ultimately kill each other, wouldn't you be responsible for them doing so since you placed them there? You are saying no, it is the dogs fault for fighting. Well think about it. If you knew the outcome before hand, why would you still do it?

B. If you stood next to a lake and watched a person drown and did nothing to help them, then by all means them drowning is in a sense your fault since you had the ability, capacity and knowledge yet still did nothing.

This fact alone is one reason I make the claim that no life guard is on duty. There is no benevolent god anywhere or else suffering wouldn't exist. peroid.

IntoTheLight;104812 wrote:

Because we have free will.

If God was to intervene every time humans caused a problem, we would be mindless puppets under the control of God.

But isn't your philosophy just the same as this? You said that your relationship with god helps you to connect to what he would want you to do rather than what you would want to do. Isn't that mindset transforming you into a god following robot?

IntoTheLight;104812 wrote:

God gives us the ability to change things. And, if you'll recall, we did. We humans put a stop to holocaust because we exercised our free will to do so.

Why does god get the credit for humans learning empathy or compassion? Funny how you wont accuse god of causing bad things to happen but as soon as something good happens you say god did it. Ironic and contradictory.

IntoTheLight;104812 wrote:

No offense intended to the original poster, but I find these kind of questions sort of silly. Many people apparently seem to think that the only reason God exists is to fix all the problems of humanity.

He's just conducting quality assurance testing on his creation right? Toss out the defective ones and keep the ones that will never question his authority, might or prowess.

IntoTheLight;104812 wrote:

I wonder if the people who ask these kind of questions have really looked at the full implications of what they are asking. Do people really want God to control everything that happens in the world?

Maybe god is like a five year old playing and you are just another marionette who believes they have free will.

IntoTheLight;104812 wrote:

I certainly don't nor would I want to associate with such a being. If God was to go around controling everything we do and experience, then we would be robots with no free will whatsoever. We might as well be in "The Matrix" if that's the case. No thanks.

Alright fair enough. I also wouldn't want anything to do with such a being as well as if that being were to punish another being for doing anything. Why exactly would a being be punished anyways? The rules are not clearly spelt out so why condemn a being for such a secretive rule book?

It would be like inventing a sport but not telling any of the athletes playing the game any of the objectives but instead letting them debate over the goals and pretty much guess the rules. Yet all the while the creator is sentencing them for fouls they were really not aware of. That is what is silly.

1 Reply

@IntoTheLight,

IntoTheLight;104812 wrote:

I don't believe that God created evil. I think that humans choose to be evil. I think evil is entirely a human attribute.

Why should God be accountable for what other people do? That doesn't make sense to me.

Because we have free will.

If God was to intervene every time humans caused a problem, we would be mindless puppets under the control of God.

God gives us the ability to change things. And, if you'll recall, we did. We humans put a stop to holocaust because we exercised our free will to do so.

[/B]I don't believe that God directly influences the natural world in the way that you perceive. Maybe God has no control over such things. Did that occur to you? Your questions assume that God is all-powerful and directly causes all things to occur or "permits" things to occur.

No offense intended to the original poster, but I find these kind of questions sort of silly. Many people apparently seem to think that the only reason God exists is to fix all the problems of humanity.

I wonder if the people who ask these kind of questions have really looked at the full implications of what they are asking. Do people really want God to control everything that happens in the world?

I certainly don't nor would I want to associate with such a being. If God was to go around controling everything we do and experience, then we would be robots with no free will whatsoever. We might as well be in "The Matrix" if that's the case. No thanks.

--IntoTheLight--

Its not a matter of god solving all our problems and us having a perfect existence or believing god exists for our sole purpose. Its the basic questions I have attempted to ask but have been ignored by the faithful. This free will, did we get consulted on the reasons for our creation, a necessity i would think when you are concerned with giving freedom of expression. Have we been told why we where created imperfect. I constantly ask but not one of you has had the decency to reply.

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@Krumple,

My goodness, your reply is full of assumptions. Let's begin:

Krumple;104822 wrote:

I don't think you actually believe this, instead it is something you want to believe.

How would you like me reply to that? You're basically saying that I'm not capable of determining and stating my own belief system. If that's what you think, then why are you bothering to reply to me at all? LOL

Quote:

Is evil a product of having free will?

I think so.

Quote:

If it is, then by all means god would lack free will. If not then god has the capacity to commit evil but instead chooses not to do it.

Assumption 01: You're assuming that God and humans share the same sort of psychological make-up and approach reality in the same way.
That's not my position, nor have I stated anything along those lines.

Quote:

But that would mean evil is an attribute of god just not exercised.
The only other option is that god has no free will and couldn't do any evil what so ever. But that would mean god is limited.

Assumption 02: You're assuming that God is omnipotent, again, something I never stated.

Also, you're trying to argue that: because humans have free will, and therefore are capable of evil, that God must not have free will because God is incapable of evil - but where did I say that? Nowhere.

I don't think God is evil, but I never said that God is incapable of evil. I said that I don't think evil comes from God - an argument that you still have yet to address. Nice try obfuscating things with rhetoric, however. A valiant effort, indeed.

---

Intothelight: "Why should God be accountable for what other people do?"

Quote:

In two ways, both by knowing the result or by inactivity.

A. If you owned two dogs and knew that if you placed them in the same yard together, that they would fight and ultimately kill each other, wouldn't you be responsible for them doing so since you placed them there? You are saying no, it is the dogs fault for fighting. Well think about it. If you knew the outcome before hand, why would you still do it?

Assumption 03: You are assuming that God is omniscient. Another thing I never said. Strawman alert.

Quote:

B. If you stood next to a lake and watched a person drown and did nothing to help them, then by all means them drowning is in a sense your fault since you had the ability, capacity and knowledge yet still did nothing.

Again, I ask: who made God responsible for the Humanity? -- You did; not me. You want God to be exactly what you want, and since you haven't gotten your way, you are apparently upset by this.

You've got this list of specifications of what God is susposed to be, and I'm wondering who made all of this so? You did.

Quote:

This fact alone is one reason I make the claim that no life guard is on duty. There is no benevolent god anywhere or else suffering wouldn't exist. peroid.

You're certainly welcome to believe that, if that's what you want.

One thing, I do know, however, is that people learn from suffering. People were tired of not being able to see at night, so someone invented the lamp. If there had been no suffering, there would be no lamp.

Here's another one: If you stick your hand on a hot stove, it burns you - you suffer pain - and you pull your hand back so as not to burn off your fingers and make them unusuable. You just learned something by suffering.

The holocaust: lots and lots of suffering. What did we learn from it? - Not to let it happen again. You see?

You seem to want some perfect world that doesn't exist so you blame God.
That's up to you.

---

Intothelight: "If God was to intervene every time humans caused a problem, we would be mindless puppets under the control of God."

Quote:

But isn't your philosophy just the same as this? You said that your relationship with god helps you to connect to what he would want you to do rather than what you would want to do. Isn't that mindset transforming you into a god following robot?

Not at all, because I still have free will. I don't always choose to what God advises me to do. Sometimes I do what I want - and I can do this because I have free will.

You seem to be operating under the notion that doing what God wants is some horrible, enslaving thing. That has not been my experience, personally. When I do do what God wants, I am always ultimately happier, sometimes in the short term, sometimes in the long term, but so far I have never once had an experience where I listened to God and ended up getting screwed.

Quote:

Why does god get the credit for humans learning empathy or compassion? Funny how you wont accuse god of causing bad things to happen but as soon as something good happens you say god did it. Ironic and contradictory.

Exactly where did I ever say that? I never said that God causes bad or good things to happen. You're putting words in my mouth.

Try replying to what I actually said instead of making up things. Thanks.

Quote:

He's just conducting quality assurance testing on his creation right? Toss out the defective ones and keep the ones that will never question his authority, might or prowess.

Assumption 04: You're assuming that God created the world. I never said that either.

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Maybe god is like a five year old playing and you are just another marionette who believes they have free will.

Maybe so. You're welcome to believe what you want to believe.

Quote:

Alright fair enough. I also wouldn't want anything to do with such a being as well as if that being were to punish another being for doing anything.

Assumption 05: You're assuming that God punishes people.

Quote:

Why exactly would a being be punished anyways? The rules are not clearly spelt out so why condemn a being for such a secretive rule book?

You tell me: you're the one making all these rules up.

Quote:

It would be like inventing a sport but not telling any of the athletes playing the game any of the objectives but instead letting them debate over the goals and pretty much guess the rules. Yet all the while the creator is sentencing them for fouls they were really not aware of. That is what is silly.

You seem to be using the Judeo-Christian / Muslim conception of "God".

That's not what I believe in and I've stated that. Your entire response amounts to one big Strawman argument. Next time, reply to what I actually said (on the page) instead of foisting your assumptions on me.

Thanks!

--IntoTheLight--

---------- Post added 11-21-2009 at 03:47 AM ----------

---------- Post added 11-21-2009 at 03:52 AM ----------

1 Reply

@IntoTheLight,

Here we go again defending the faith but only till it gets too difficult. Im not attacking a particular faith but any description that has been offered for debate. If you are here to defend any description of god then be particular, don't divorce yourself from a certain questions but include them when you find it beneficial. You don't have to be a true creationists to believe god created humanity.

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