Why does God permit evil????

I agree! But the point that is missing in a lot of this discussion (not so much your contributions by any means) is the idea of 'the kingdom of God as refuge from suffering'. I suppose I am wearing my Buddhist heart on my sleeve in saying that. But what I am getting at is that maybe evil and suffering arise from our relationship to reality itself. This is expressed in orthodox Christianity as 'the fall' but in the more Gnostic and Theosophic traditions, it is because of our ignorance of the real nature of our situation. In any case, from a Christian perspective, to become a disciple of Christ is to find (or at least go towards) a state, a condition of being, beyond all evil and suffering. So - 'better to light a candle than curse the darkness' - in this case, the candle being discipleship.

The same characteristic of being always present or omnipresent is problematic, but not because it is a difficult concept to grasp but instead for the implications that contradict such a trait. The other characteristics of god also contain this same issue.

I could understand that a being being in all places equally could technically know all things then. But that would also have to imply that this being IS all things not only in all places. Perhaps the characteristic is not one of being in all places at the same time but instead the ability to be anywhere at any time is more likely the case? But if the later is how the characteristic is implied then by all means there MUST be a time when not in a place and therefore something could technically be unknown. So by dismissing omnipresent you MUST also toss out all knowing.



But saying this points out the fundamental flaw then in religion. If it needs to evolve, change or improve itself then is it not a reliable system to base one's life off of? I think this issue itself is the reason there is so many problems in the world. People that want to hold strongly to the past where those beliefs cause harm instead of anything good.

If religion needs to improve itself then by all means it is a useless tool for the betterment of humanity. You would be better off abandoning it for reasoning and societal logic.

But you have reverted to considering the question of why there is any evil at all. I suggested (or rather Voltaire suggests) that we consider not why there is any evil at all, but whether this would not be a better world if just one terrible incident of evil (an agonizing death of a child) were prevented, not if there were no evils. That is, I think, a very penetrating question. It might be that some evil is necessary, but it is harder to believe that every single evil is necessary.

As for the Book of Job I have already mentioned it as a theodicy. What it tells us is that might is right, and we should stop complaining. That may be true, but I don't, myself, find that theodicy satisfactory.

Hereunder an excerpt from an account of an experience of 'spiritual illumination', undergone by a woman identified only as C.M.C., in around 1893, when she was in her forties. I think it is an interesting first-person account of an intense spiritual experience, and also has some interesting things to say about evil and suffering. It also illustrates the 'experiential' side of religion as distinct from what we 'believe' about it. The account is around 10-12 pages long, and is completely devoid of any specifically Christian or other conventionally religious language or imagery.

It's not so much good versus evil or God permits evil, evil is about cause and effect, for instance, most serial killers will have come from a background of child abuse. Some see this as the Devils work but it's not, there is a cause and effect in motion here.

And God doesn't intervene when the effects are suffering and pain (evil). But, why not? Doesn't He want to? Is He not powerful enough?

To believe this you must make other assumptions, that those who never experience life or are cushioned from its hardships have to live more than once. You have to imagine a creator who designed this experience of life. You have to imagine why, why he does this. If i don't exist and by his creation i do exist, so i might be privileged to experience life,why is it then other possibilities of life are denied. It becomes obvious, if this is the case, we are created for gods interest not ours. So are we satisfied that we suffer and experience life for the creators entertainment, should we thank him for being this player on the stage of life.

---------- Post added 11-18-2009 at 08:29 AM ----------

Caroline do you believe this god exists ? the one you find so easy to excuse. If you do , what purpose does life serve for his creation.

I don't excuse him I just don't think that he has power over peoples free will which I might add serves a purpose in our lives, where would we be without free will.

---------- Post added 11-18-2009 at 11:03 AM ----------

God doesn't actually commit heinious crimes it's people, why not have a go at them.

What purpose is free will, if you even believe in it. You live by the restrictions and moral boundries life imposses on you. God determined your actions by the manner of your creation.You are acting out his play. I believe in free will but not your god.

Men when they act they act according to their weaknesses, determined by god.

Define God.
I think they determine it themselves, isn't God about not giving into these weaknesses, in order to become closer to God.

[QUOTE=Krumple;104236] The same characteristic of being always present or omnipresent is problematic, but not because it is a difficult concept to grasp but instead for the implications that contradict such a trait. The other characteristics of god also contain this same issue. [/QUOTE] I would agree that the classical notions of divine nature are incompatible with our modern notions of how the world works. I would also agree that the classical notions (omni potent, science, presence, immutability and impassibility) are self contradictory.


[QUOTE=Krumple;104236] I could understand that a being being in all places equally could technically know all things then. But that would also have to imply that this being IS all things not only in all places. Perhaps the characteristic is not one of being in all places at the same time but instead the ability to be anywhere at any time is more likely the case? But if the later is how the characteristic is implied then by all means there MUST be a time when not in a place and therefore something could technically be unknown. So by dismissing omnipresent you MUST also toss out all knowing. [/QUOTE] No argument and many modern conceptions of the divine (including religious philosophers and theologians) involve divine immanence more than transcendence and a process view of a god working through nature. The world is seen as an emanation of spirit or a manifestation of the divine not the play-toy of some sort of divine tyrant or ruler.

[QUOTE=Krumple;104236] But saying this points out the fundamental flaw then in religion. If it needs to evolve, change or improve itself then is it not a reliable system to base one's life off of? I think this issue itself is the reason there is so many problems in the world. People that want to hold strongly to the past where those beliefs cause harm instead of anything good. [/QUOTE] Not so fast. All of our concepts about the world, the universe, the nature of man, change and evolve. Religion has changed as well as it must; from animism, to polytheism, to the gods of Olympus, to monotheism. The conception of divine nature and divine action changes, has changed and will change. Some form of religious belief is a constant feature of society, history and culture. Religious conceptions must change and evolve as all other conceptions do. In fact the major problem with religion and the modern world is that our traditional religious conceptions have not yet changed to accommodate our changed world view from the age of reason and science. Why is the ability of science to modify its theories and views conceived of as a strength whereas if religion changes it is a fatal flaw and weakness? To seek truth is a journey, a destination which will never be reached.

[QUOTE=Krumple;104236] If religion needs to improve itself then by all means it is a useless tool for the betterment of humanity. You would be better off abandoning it for reasoning and societal logic. [/QUOTE] Reason and logic only go so far in constructing a worldview that includes aesthetics and ethics. In fact; a notion of compassion or empathy and of awe or transcendence are necessary. It is no error that all the enduring religious traditions have as their core ethical principle compassion and that the wonder of creation is also an enduring religious theme.

xris assuming god exists, then he/she/it must be infinite in all aspects compared to us, some of his ideas and attributes thus must as far remote from us as that of a cockroach is when compared to us , or more so.

Maybe his hate, is more intense and long lasting as ours is, so might his love be. Whatever he is he , in my opinion, he must be infinitely mightier than we are so any attempt to get on his good side with be sublime wisdom. "The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom"


You appear to be very angry with a god you do not appear to believe exists, why is that xris??

I'm not angry with god, I'm angry with the description. I have told you before, he is beyond our comprehension, if exists. I only argue with the view people have of him not the concept.

But xris by stating God is beyond our comprehension you are doing what the rest of us are guilty of, attributing an aspect to god, who we just might be able to comprehend and your statement could thus be wrong

Whatever; God can comprehend us and make himself comprehensible to mortal humans if he wants to, cant he xris?

To say all is love is all is to ignore that our world has within its bowels a bottomless potential for cruelty. To say all is love ignores the often total disrespect many have for the dignity of life... Love is the answer but love is not all there is.

All of your love will be added to the sum of all love.. I call it God = Love/hate/good/evil but you could just call whatever it is, but it is your choice to select.

How can i be wrong if i have not given a description.

If you claim you have privileged information, am i just supposed to accept is a gospel?

When did he make himself clear to us mortals? have I missed something?

Xris I said he could make himself clear to us, not that he did!!

il- Good God and the Evil One Origin of Evil.

Here are my conclusions on the origin of Evil.

I cannot comprehend the view that a perfect, good; loving God of pure light and love could ever conceive the concept of evil in his totally pure and holy mind.

Evil is totally opposite to Gods absolute goodness, completely alien to his innate intrinsic nature and essence. All evil is a monstrous abomination to God.

God is perfect and would, therefore, does not permit the concept of evil to originate or exist in his perfect holy mind or in his creation

The usual answer is that a previously perfect Arch Angel Lucifer became jealous of God and began to oppose God and set up his own kingdom of darkness.

How then could God create a being with the "potential" for the utter evil that we see all around us on planet earth and in the universe? (Lucifer, eve, Adam, some of mankind)? Lucifer was perfect when created! Adam was innocent!

Logic tells me Lucifer is thus not Satan or the Devil but maybe "an agent of " IT"

How could a perfect being like Lucifer become corrupt? I like to use the analogy of the perfect motor car. A perfect motor car would simply last forever in its original perfect condition. Except under one condition "outside destructive interference".

The very same result would be with a perfect being such as Lucifer! (Who told him he was beautiful? certainly not God!) God would never write into his book of existence the concept or possibility of a malignant thing such as evil. Evil must, therefore, have originated outside of his perfect self and mind! What possible use could evil be to God?

God is omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (all - present) and omniscient (all - knowing) he is however not "everything" God is "light" and in him is no darkness whatsoever! , Therefore, "darkness" must be an external something separate from Himself.

I believe in a duality a God of infinite goodness opposed by an antigod of infinite evil

I know from experience, that the source of EVIL and its origin is from some external eternal monster that lurks remote from God in the primeval darkness of the deep (Gen 1:1). I call this place the "void"(hell). I am convinced that the '('VOID') is HELL by a terrifying personal experience during a near death episode.

I was shown an evil monster of almost infinite intelligence lurks in the deepest darkness of the void (hell), while there. It is this eternal monster that I believe tempted Lucifer, resulting in his downfall and his metamorphosis into Satan or the Devil.

This monster is the complete opposite to God and dwells in utmost darkness deep, and very remote from God. I know this is true as I was shown this Malignant Monstrous Beast by an intelligence I took for God, while in the Void during a near death experience

I think that "IT" is God's eternal enemy and the reason for evil and its origin and perpetuation. This thing is almost as mighty as God is himself! (Light against darkness). It seemed to be some type of antigod? There is an Anti-Christ-why not an Anti-God, Maybe they are one and the same evil being?

If you dismiss my above view on good and evil, then you must refer to the Bible and read Isaiah 45; 7 were GOD says" I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

This verse could be a very definite and clear indication of the origin of evil; namely evil originating from God himself and "God having two natures"

On what basis do I justify my previous statements? They are justified on the basis of my own personal terrible confrontation with this evil monster that lurks deep in the "Void" or hell. (Three times during brought on by near death episodes).

This "void" monster is worshiped by Satan and I am convinced is the ultimate source and origin of all evil. Satan did not confront me during one of my near death experiences, but by something almost infinitely worse! Satan is the prince of darkness, not the king of Evil! This thing is God's eternal enemy and has a diabolic almost infinite evil dark intelligence and power.

I experienced that God due to his innate perfection is forced to judge Evil (darkness) and remove it forever from his being. I felt this judgment more as an emotional separation from God, with feelings of utter darkness, desolation, despair, and fear terror, horror and everlasting dark cold hopelessness, the Void.

I was shown that totally depraved dark evil beings , would have to eternally exist, somewhere far together, forever, separate and remote from God's love and could never enter his light. (Darkness cannot penetrate the light!). Because of their utter evil depravity and darkness, totally

Evil and Depraved beings would never enter Gods light and would be forgotten by God in their own Evil Depraved Perversions forever in the Void" A terrible thought".

When I was so very ill, I communicated with intelligence, who revealed these things to me? I got the impression that God would someday rescue persons of much lesser evil, who had some light (goodness) in them. From the lesser upper regions of the Void into His eternal blessed light. (Out of the eternal darkness).

Let me assure the reader that there is no love, joy peace or light in the Void. Only utmost hopeless desolation and everlasting despair.

There is good and evil throughout the Universe. I know this from personal experience! The battle is from Eternal past but God will destroy the Beast of the Abysses

But do not despair if you are reading this short essay of mine, you are safe because God is within you and you have a spark of eternal life energy that can never be extinguished. This light will one day become a blazing furnace of love.


So Satan is not the source of evil only an agent of Satan I call the evil one "Evilian"


You see if you have read this account you are concerned with Evil and evil is your enemy


God does not have two natures!
God is love!


IS GOD GOOD?
DOES GOD NOT EXIST?
DOES GOD HAVE A POWERFUL ENEMY?
__________________

Alan this is for me total nonsense, sorry but you are assuming so many biblical stories as the truth, i dont even know where to start.

Is your god omnipotent or not, a simple question?

God doesn't have control over our free will. It is our free will that determines evil or good. Some have been disturbed from a very young age, (not that I'm sympathetic to these people), it's cause and effect more than pure evil, what I mean is people become evil not that they simply are evil.

Why can i not get a straight answer from some very easy questions?

Whats free will Caroline and how are you so certain its a gift from god?

Alan is your god omnipotent, is yours Caroline?

Do you think this god knows everything or is he less than perfect?

Free will is where you choose what to do, if we didn't have it we'd be like robots. I don't know what God is if it exists. If God does exist then I believe that he has no power over us just like the next person has no power over us, we have the right to chose, it also helps with basic survival, we chose to eat our greens for example and so on.

---------- Post added 11-19-2009 at 10:30 AM ----------

No he is not omnipotent if God exists, nothing has that power. We have our own power.