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Consciousness is a Biological Problem

Forums: Philosophy, Philosophy Of Mind, Old Subscriptions
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Caroline
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 10:24 pm
@Kielicious,
You believe you don't have a soul? How come? Please tell.
Thanks.
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 10:24 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;91634 wrote:
But isn't that the point of the biologists, that all brains are functioning in exactly the same way?


... nope ... individual brains function in similar ways, but due to things like developmental differences, experiential differences, chemistry differences, bodily differences, cortex plasticity, and so on, the relative location/size/etc. of a function in one person's brain may be different than that same function in another person's brain ... a key feature here is plasticity ... that no two people's faces (not even twins) are exactly the same is obvious - but if the face were as plastic as the brain, we'd all be Mr. Potato Head! (sorry - couldn't resist! Smile) ...
0 Replies
 
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 10:28 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;91639 wrote:
The claim has been that the human consciousness is nothing more than the firing of electrodes in the brain


......

"electrodes" ?

Pathfinder;91639 wrote:
Every brain functions this way using the exact same method


no!

Pathfinder;91639 wrote:
However the mind and thinking of the mass murderer is vastly different. In what way is the firing of his brain different than anyone else's?


different synaptic and morphological configuration, we told you this before

Pathfinder;91639 wrote:
His brain is functioning exactly the same way yours and mine is.


no it isn't!
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 10:31 pm
@Kielicious,
Sorry Gang have to bow out, I am not sure but I dont think Caroline and I are speaking the same language, her questioning of my line of thinking is a little strange? i think there may be a language barrier here but she has moderator power so I am wise to disappear.

I am sure there is another thread on the argument between the biological and metaphysical aspects of the human conscience where we can continue this where Caroline would not feel the need to interject.
Caroline
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 10:33 pm
@Kielicious,
Hey Pathfinder I'll get another moderator in here if you like or would you still like to bow out? Because the rules are we don't moderate when participating in discussions.
Thanks.

---------- Post added 09-18-2009 at 11:35 PM ----------

Let me know please thanks.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 10:36 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;91648 wrote:
Sorry Gang have to bow out, I am not sure but I dont think Caroline and I are speaking the same language, her questioning of my line of thinking is a little strange? i think there may be a language barrier here but she has moderator power so I am wise to disappear.

I am sure there is another thread on the argument between the biological and metaphysical aspects of the human conscience where we can continue this where Caroline would not feel the need to interject.


I left a while ago. Cya around. Smile

Rich
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 10:38 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;91639 wrote:
The claim has been that the human consciousness is nothing more than the firing of electrodes in the brain. Every brain functions this way using the exact same method.

However the mind and thinking of the mass murderer is vastly different. In what way is the firing of his brain different than anyone else's? His brain is functioning exactly the same way yours and mine is.

And yet he has a very different character and nature than we do. Where in the biological explanation of consciousness is this differ4ence explained?


... even individual neurons are like snowflakes - no two are alike ... but that's really not the point here - if one is going to say "human consciousness is nothing more than the firing of the electrodes in the brain" they might as well take reductionism to its logical conclusion and say "human consciousness is nothing more than vibrating subatomic strings" ... human consciousness is a lot more that just firing neurons - it's about how neurons are wired up into subsystems and those subsystems are wired up into larger subsystems; it's about how neurons self-synchronize into brain-wide patterns riding the edge of chaos; it's about hormone gradients impacting how neurons fire; it's about bodily perception and action in a lived world giving consciousness a reason to be; it's about ... ... ...
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 10:39 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;91649 wrote:
Hey Pathfinder I'll get another moderator in here if you like or would you still like to bow out? Because the rules are we don't moderate when participating in discussions.
Thanks.

---------- Post added 09-18-2009 at 11:35 PM ----------

Let me know please thanks.


No I am going to bring your interference to the attention of a couple of other moderators to see what they think. I honestly do not know what your problem has been. It seems very strange to me. I am not familiar enough with this forum to know who is who with regard to moderators and those in charge. But your conduct in this affair seems extremely unusual.
0 Replies
 
Caroline
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 10:41 pm
@Kielicious,
Ok will do thank you.
0 Replies
 
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 10:46 pm
@paulhanke,
paulhanke;91654 wrote:
it's about bodily perception and action in a lived world giving consciousness a reason to be; it's about ... ... ...


It's abut the thing that causes the neurons to fire .. consciousness.

Rich
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 10:48 pm
@richrf,
richrf;91661 wrote:
It's abut the thing that causes the neurons to fire .. consciousness


last time I checked depolarization, not consciousness, causes the action potential

it's most likely that not everything with neurons can be said to be conscious btw
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 10:57 pm
@richrf,
richrf;91661 wrote:
It's abut the thing that causes the neurons to fire .. consciousness.


... in the sense that circular neural firing (feedback) can be observed to occur in the brain, one person's consciousness can be construed to be the cause of some of the neurons firing in that same person's brain (and at the same time, the firing neurons contribute to the cause of that person's consciousness - I love cybernetics!) ... but I'm sure that's not what you meant Smile ...
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 11:02 pm
@paulhanke,
paulhanke;91664 wrote:
... in the sense that circular neural firing (feedback) can be observed to occur in the brain, one person's consciousness can be construed to be the cause of some of the neurons firing in that same person's brain (and at the same time, the firing neurons contribute to the cause of that person's consciousness - I love cybernetics!) ... but I'm sure that's not what you meant Smile ...


Paul would you be interested in discussing this on a bit of a different tangent?


http://www.philosophyforum.com/philosophy-forums/secondary-branches-philosophy/philosophy-mind/5944-mystery-human-psyche.html#post91665
0 Replies
 
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 11:17 pm
@paulhanke,
paulhanke;91664 wrote:
... in the sense that circular neural firing (feedback) can be observed to occur in the brain, one person's consciousness can be construed to be the cause of some of the neurons firing in that same person's brain (and at the same time, the firing neurons contribute to the cause of that person's consciousness - I love cybernetics!) ... but I'm sure that's not what you meant Smile ...


What I am saying is that consciousness is firing off the neurons. If you want to know what consciousness is, just make a decision to answer this post or not to answer this post. That which made the decision is consciousness. Once it makes that decision, it will fire off the neurons to start the process going.

Rich

---------- Post added 09-19-2009 at 12:19 AM ----------

odenskrigare;91662 wrote:
last time I checked depolarization, not consciousness, causes the action potential

it's most likely that not everything with neurons can be said to be conscious btw


Check again. It was your consciousness. Something made those elementary particles collapse from a wave form into a particle which induced the neuron to do something. It was your consciousness.

Rich
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 11:29 pm
@Kielicious,
it was?

what about non-sentients with neurons?

what about C. elegans?
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 11:32 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;91676 wrote:
it was?

what about non-sentients with neurons?


I don't know about non-sentients. You'll have to ask them if they have a consciousness.

Rich
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 11:34 pm
@richrf,
richrf;91669 wrote:
Once it makes that decision, it will fire off the neurons to start the process going.


... from a cybernetic/autopoietic standpoint, if the neurons ever do stop firing, the party's over ... with nothing feeding forward, there's nothing to feed back ... no neural firings from which consciousness can emerge; and no consciousness to feed back and constrain the next round of neural firings ...
0 Replies
 
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 11:35 pm
@Kielicious,
C. elegans has got a tiny ass nervous system, only a few hundred neurons, all devoted directly to bodily functions
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 11:37 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;91680 wrote:
C. elegans has got a tiny ass nervous system, only a few hundred neurons, all devoted directly to bodily functions


Fine. Ask them, and see what they say. I have no idea whether or not they have consciousness and I am not going to assume one way or another.

Rich
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 11:46 pm
@Kielicious,
I went outside rich

I knelt down and asked the nematodes what they thought of the coming cold weather

they didn't say anything

are they conscious? well, sure, maybe jury's out I guess

I find it strange, though, that you would be undecided as to whether nematodes ... tiny little biological automata ... are conscious, but seem staunchly opposed to the idea of an advanced neural computer being conscious ...
 

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