2
   

Consciousness is a Biological Problem

 
 
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 11:53 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;91682 wrote:
I went outside rich

I knelt down and asked the nematodes what they thought of the coming cold weather

they didn't say anything

are they conscious? well, sure, maybe jury's out I guess

I find it strange, though, that you would be undecided as to whether nematodes ... tiny little biological automata ... are conscious, but seem staunchly opposed to the idea of an advanced neural computer being conscious ...


Maybe they didn't want to talk to you. Anyway, you have lots of humans to talk to and maybe some day you will solve the riddle of life. I am in no rush. Are you?

Rich
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 11:56 pm
@richrf,
Sorry Pathfinder but I've been ignoring your posts for some time now, and with good reason. The responses you and rich give are more often than not ostentatious. I dont understand why you have the audacity to come in here and belittle people with your implicit insults that convey an egocentric omniscience, and yet, have nothing at all to show. You dont present anything other than your own arrogant outlook on reality. Maybe if you actually put forth a half-decent argument with evidence in support you'd get more and better responses. Unfortunately, you guys havent which is why I have been told by others not to respond to you two.

Besides, paul and oden seem to be making some good replies anyways:)
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 11:58 pm
@richrf,
richrf;91685 wrote:
Maybe they didn't want to talk to you


they haven't got much of a brain and no larynx either, more likely that

richrf;91685 wrote:
Anyway, you have lots of humans to talk to and maybe some day you will solve the riddle of life.


probably no one will solve the riddle of life, least of all me. it is more appropriate to speak of discrete riddles (plural) of life and I think they can be solved but they're probably infinite in number

and yes I was at the UB Freethinkers meeting today, they think I'm really funny and I'm going to do a presentation about transhumanism for them soon I think

richrf;91685 wrote:
I am in no rush. Are you?


this is the only life I know I will ever have. damn straight I am in a hurry
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 12:00 am
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;91688 wrote:
this is the only life I know I will ever have. damn straight I am in a hurry


And that is really what it is all about. Too many people in too big of hurry. Well, I have plenty of time.

Rich
0 Replies
 
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 12:05 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;91687 wrote:
Sorry Pathfinder but I've been ignoring your posts for some time now, and with good reason. The responses you and rich give are more often than not ostentatious. I dont understand why you have the audacity to come in here and belittle people with your implicit insults that convey an egocentric omniscience, and yet, have nothing at all to show. You dont present anything other than your own arrogant outlook on reality.


well my tack now is "where's the beef?"

what has this worldview of theirs produced?

---------- Post added 09-19-2009 at 02:09 AM ----------

richrf;91689 wrote:
And that is really what it is all about. Too many people in too big of hurry. Well, I have plenty of time.


I'm not in a hurry to make lots of money or anything, just store up experiences and knowledge and maybe be a professor and have kids and stuff, rich
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 12:11 am
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;91691 wrote:
well my tack now is "where's the beef?"

what has this worldview of theirs produced?



a security blanket with a dose of the ol' mental placebo would be my guess
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 12:22 am
@Kielicious,
The heck I am going to take the word of two young kids about the nature of life.

Rich
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 12:38 am
@richrf,
richrf;91695 wrote:
The heck I am going to take the word of two young kids about the nature of life.

Rich


I shouldn't even dignify your chronological snobbery with a response but ...

how's this for two young kids

Paul Churchland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Patricia Churchland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

they're elder than you, and I pretty much agree with both of them

the shoe's on the other foot now rich

---------- Post added 09-19-2009 at 02:56 AM ----------

the heck I am going to take the word of an old woowoo over the US Navy's research department
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 06:42 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;91687 wrote:
Sorry Pathfinder but I've been ignoring your posts for some time now, and with good reason. The responses you and rich give are more often than not ostentatious. I dont understand why you have the audacity to come in here and belittle people with your implicit insults that convey an egocentric omniscience, and yet, have nothing at all to show. You dont present anything other than your own arrogant outlook on reality. Maybe if you actually put forth a half-decent argument with evidence in support you'd get more and better responses. Unfortunately, you guys havent which is why I have been told by others not to respond to you two.

Besides, paul and oden seem to be making some good replies anyways:)



What exactly was the point of your OP if you did not want any criticism of it? And when you ask a question and observe the replies to it, both pro and con, try not to see the arguments against your ideology as insulting and you will enjoy the progress much moreso. If my viewpoints are considered insulting and arrogant than what do you suppose your viewpoints come across as to someone who thinks as you do. I suggest that you avoid asking questions or proposing debatable topics for discussion if you are only going to take offense to everything that does not agree with you.

Believe me I will certainly avoid getting into discussions with you in the future just to make sure I do not hurt your feelings. Oden I get! But you and caroline???? Just too weird for me, she doesnt even make sense. And you seem very immature.

This is a philosophy forum where people voice their thoughts, in agreement and in debate. When one posts a topic for discussion one should be prepared to hear both sides of the isue. Why would one take offense? I will take up another discussion and avoid you in the future.
ACB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 08:23 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder - How much of the following summary would you agree with?

1. The brain and consciousness are closely related.

2. There can be no consciousness without a brain (or some physical apparatus that works similarly to a brain).

3. Biologists acknowlege the hard problem of consciousness (some more openly than others), but realise that science cannot at present solve it. Some believe that science will never solve it.

4. Nevertheless, biologists continue to discover facts about the brain. Because of (1) above, these facts are relevant to consciousness.

5. Philosophers need to take account of the relevant physical facts, because their metaphysical speculations must be consistent with these. It is no use having a metaphysical intuition if it contradicts the science in any way. Philosophers should welcome the work of biologists, since it narrows down the field of metaphysical speculation and gives it focus.

6. For example, you earlier argued that good and evil character were independent of the brain. You based this on the assumption that all brains work in the same way. But it turns out that this is incorrect: brains work the same in a general sense, but every brain is different at a detailed level, and the differences between the brains of psychopaths and those of normal people are particularly marked. These differences correspond closely to moral character. So it is unnecessary to invoke a brain-independent basis for good and evil. This is an example of scientific knowledge usefully informing metaphysical speculation.

If you disagree with any of the above points (e.g. point 2), can you please give specific reasons.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 08:34 am
@ACB,
ACB;91846 wrote:
2. There can be no consciousness without a brain (or some physical apparatus that works similarly to a brain).


There is no way of knowing this. You are assuming this because you believe that brain is the source of consciousness. One always has to be aware of their own assumptions when exploring the human body. The brain is an indicator but we have no way of knowing whether it is the source.

For example, if a car is overheating we know about this if from the thermometer. However, if the thermometer is broken, this does not mean that the car is not overheating. It may be or it may not be. There is no way of knowing.

Rich
0 Replies
 
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 01:07 pm
@Kielicious,
of course there's no way of knowing

but that doesn't mean we should assume things
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 04:37 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;91788 wrote:
What exactly was the point of your OP if you did not want any criticism of it? And when you ask a question and observe the replies to it, both pro and con, try not to see the arguments against your ideology as insulting and you will enjoy the progress much moreso. If my viewpoints are considered insulting and arrogant than what do you suppose your viewpoints come across as to someone who thinks as you do. I suggest that you avoid asking questions or proposing debatable topics for discussion if you are only going to take offense to everything that does not agree with you.

Believe me I will certainly avoid getting into discussions with you in the future just to make sure I do not hurt your feelings. Oden I get! But you and caroline???? Just too weird for me, she doesnt even make sense. And you seem very immature.

This is a philosophy forum where people voice their thoughts, in agreement and in debate. When one posts a topic for discussion one should be prepared to hear both sides of the isue. Why would one take offense? I will take up another discussion and avoid you in the future.



I'm not sure if you have noticed but this thread has 900+ replies, to which I have fully responded to and defended my position against all criticisms. I acknowledge differing opinions and reply accordingly. In fact, wasnt I responding to jeeprs just the other week?... However, if there are replies that intentionally insult people and have no substance other than to be malicious, then I will not respond. I've said it before and I will say it again, if you present a sound argument with evidence in support I will respond; but as you and I both know you havent. And I'm not the only one who sees this.... You dont add anything of value other than as a representation of what not to do in civil discourse.

And that would be another reason why I dont respond because its hard to hold back the ad hominems. So, the balls in your court. This is your last chance to make a half-decent argument to which anyone with intellectual integrity will respond. Will you take up the offer or reply back with more of the same old crap?
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 04:44 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;91936 wrote:
of course there's no way of knowing

but that doesn't mean we should assume things


Right. That was my point. Don't assume that consciousness is gone once the brain stops firing off neurons.

Rich
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 05:02 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;92012 wrote:
I'm not sure if you have noticed but this thread has 900+ replies, to which I have fully responded to and defended my position against all criticisms. I acknowledge differing opinions and reply accordingly. In fact, wasnt I responding to jeeprs just the other week?... However, if there are replies that intentionally insult people and have no substance other than to be malicious, then I will not respond. I've said it before and I will say it again, if you present a sound argument with evidence in support I will respond; but as you and I both know you havent. And I'm not the only one who sees this.... You dont add anything of value other than as a representation of what not to do in civil discourse.

And that would be another reason why I dont respond because its hard to hold back the ad hominems. So, the balls in your court. This is your last chance to make a half-decent argument to which anyone with intellectual integrity will respond. Will you take up the offer or reply back with more of the same old crap?



I really don't know how to respond from here Kiel.

If I argue my point you accuse me of derailing the thread.

And you accuse of my incivility and insults when I know that I do not do so. You may see a couple of sarcastic remarks here and there but not to the degree that others have tossed insults around. Why have you chosen to pick out mine from the lot?

Why are we even arguing this at all? It seems very silly. I would love to continue to argue this subject. It is one that is close to my heart and that I enjoy honing my views around.

but I honestly do not see how I can say anything when you and a few others seem to take what I say personally.

I believe that the human consciousness cannot be identified by biological investigation alone, and that there is a mysterious element to the consciousness that demands to be considered and should not go ignored when we try to understand it.

I am at a loss to understand why you take that line of thinking as some sort of attempt to derail this thread and not a pertinent argument.
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 05:47 pm
@Pathfinder,
richrf;92016 wrote:
Right. That was my point. Don't assume that consciousness is gone once the brain stops firing off neurons.


it's only known to exist when they are

and is probably an emergent phenomenon of them

the faulty assumption then would be to assume that consciousness transcends material

Pathfinder;92020 wrote:
If I argue my point you accuse me of derailing the thread.


when you repeatedly insist that everyone's brain is the same and that spermatazoa have Will, you are derailing the thread

Pathfinder;92020 wrote:
I believe that the human consciousness cannot be identified by biological investigation alone, and that there is a mysterious element to the consciousness that demands to be considered and should not go ignored when we try to understand it.


"where's the beef?"

what predictive power does your explanation have? what can it be used for?
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 05:51 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;92028 wrote:
it's only known to exist when they are

and is probably an emergent phenomenon of them


So you assume that it isn't there when the brain ceases to function. That is my point. You are making assumptions because they are convenient. It happens all the time in science.

Assumption: Consciousness only exists when the brain is functioning,

therefore

It is a fact that : consciousness can only exist when the brain is functioning.

Everything you state is based upon unsubstantiated assumptions. Simply because you cannot measure consciousness with current instrumentation, doesn't mean that it cannot exist without the brain.

In order for this to work, first you have to measure consciousness (which you cannot do) and then you find out whether it requires the brain - not the other way around. That is the scientific approach. Yours is just speculation, which has nothing to do with science.

Rich
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 05:52 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;92020 wrote:
I really don't know how to respond from here Kiel.

If I argue my point you accuse me of derailing the thread.

And you accuse of my incivility and insults when I know that I do not do so. You may see a couple of sarcastic remarks here and there but not to the degree that others have tossed insults around. Why have you chosen to pick out mine from the lot?

Why are we even arguing this at all? It seems very silly. I would love to continue to argue this subject. It is one that is close to my heart and that I enjoy honing my views around.

but I honestly do not see how I can say anything when you and a few others seem to take what I say personally.

I believe that the human consciousness cannot be identified by biological investigation alone, and that there is a mysterious element to the consciousness that demands to be considered and should not go ignored when we try to understand it.

I am at a loss to understand why you take that line of thinking as some sort of attempt to derail this thread and not a pertinent argument.



I never accused you of derailing the thread. Yes, it is true that you can have some off-topic remarks but who doesnt? We all have some off-topic comments from time to time, but if you constantly push the envelope I will not tolerate it. That is, after all, one reason why we have moderators. If you disagree with the OP that's fine. No one is going to censor you based solely on a differing opinion. We arent as dogmatic as you think. But once again, the main reason why I and others have stopped responding is because you dont make good arguments that involve sound reasoning, physical evidence, and most important of all, in a honest and sincere manner. You intentionally offend the people you want answers from....
get it?
0 Replies
 
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 05:59 pm
@richrf,
richrf;92029 wrote:
In order for this to work, first you have to measure consciousness (which you cannot do) and then you find out whether it requires the brain - not the other way around. That is the scientific approach.


you'd better tell all the actual experts they're wrong then

richrf;92029 wrote:
Yours is just speculation, which has nothing to do with science


I know that consciousness occurs in a living person. I don't know whether it doesn't among the dead. neither do you; don't pretend you know
0 Replies
 
ACB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 06:15 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;92020 wrote:
I believe that the human consciousness cannot be identified by biological investigation alone, and that there is a mysterious element to the consciousness that demands to be considered and should not go ignored when we try to understand it.


I agree that there is a mysterious element to consciousness, but the problem is: where do we go from there? Do we simply say: "Biology is not the whole answer", and end the discussion there? Or is it possible to investigate the mystery in a rational but non-scientific way? Can we peer through the metaphysical fog and discern any structure or detail regarding consciousness?

To move the discussion along, I would be grateful if you could reply to the points in my post #910, if you have time.
 

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