Consciousness is a Biological Problem

@Kielicious,

the issue with metaphysical analysis is that there is no quality control

you can say anything and it can't be tested

0 Replies

@Kielicious,

I have been nothing but polite to you Pathfinder I will report you if I see anymore posts like this again.
Thanks.

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@Caroline,

Caroline;91603 wrote:

People are evil Pathfinder because they chose to be, they have a choice, you of all people shoud know that, how come you don't, please, pray tell?

Is it really just a matter of choice Caroline?

Thats my point!

Do you think that Manson just chose to be evil?

These people enjoy torturing their victims. they are thrilled and enthralled with watching people suffer great anguish and fear.

That is not choice Caroline, that is something engrained into their very being.

---------- Post added 09-18-2009 at 10:35 PM ----------

Caroline;91609 wrote:

I have been nothing but polite to you Pathfinder I will report you if I see anymore posts like this again.
Thanks.

Caroline you are going to have to be more specific,

You will have to tell me what it is I am doing that is causing you to rebuke me.

What is the problem with my train of thought here! PM me so it doesnt havbe to be discussed in the midst of this thread.

---------- Post added 09-18-2009 at 10:38 PM ----------

odenskrigare;91607 wrote:

the issue with metaphysical analysis is that there is no quality control

you can say anything and it can't be tested

And so the questions regarding the mysteries of the human psyche will be just about anything! What is your point?

Are any of those questions I posed not questions that any living sentient would ask?

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@Kielicious,

Manson became evil beacause he succumbed to greed and power, it's a slow process wich feeds and festers and it's the person who allows it, their choice! Who else's is it. please, pray tell?
Thanks.

1 Reply

@Caroline,

Caroline;91614 wrote:

Manson became evil beacause he subcomed to greed and power, it's a slow process wich feeds and festers and it's the person who allows it, their choice!
Thanks.

I disagree Caroline.

He didn't succumb to anything. He acted out on the things that pleased his desires. If that is what you meant by greed and power than maybe you are right. But my point is that some men are just plain delighted by the torment of others for no other reason than the fact that it pleases them. The enjoy it. They need it.

This goes to show that there is a unique individual characteristic that is not found in brain function that is directly related to the human psyche and consciousness.

Do they have a choice to act or not? Of copurse there is always a choice. the point is however WHy do some people find joy in the pain of others? Why are some people so innately evil while most are not? Their brains are exactly the same as yours and mine and yet they are very very different aren't they? Their consciousness is not the same as ours! What is different if it is all just a matter of brain material?

1 Reply

@Kielicious,

Desires? Didn't he order a hit on Sharon Tait? The one who was married to the great film Director Roman Polanski, how would you explain it to these people and wasn't she pregnant and they were madly in love in together, they lost the baby, blood everywhere how awful. And wastn't it done out of spite, like he wanted to be famous or something? Now Charles Manson is rotting in prison. So what do you mean Pathfinder? Please explain.
Thanks.

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder;91615 wrote:

Their brains are exactly the same as yours and mine

A Neural Basis for Sociopathy (Damasio 2000)

could you at least try to check facts before you hit "Submit Reply"

please?

please?

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@Caroline,

Caroline;91618 wrote:

Desires? Didn't he oder a hit on Sharon Tait? The one who was married to the great film Director Roman Polanski, how would you explain it to these people and wasn't she pregnat and madly in love in together. So what do you mean Pathfinder? Please explain.
Thanks.

This is not about one particular person's motives Caroline. Choose any number of notorious murderers, rapists and torturers. Are you suggesting that there are no cases of human assault where the perpetrators do not seem to simply delight in their actions?

I'm not sure what you are questioning? Are you saying that in every act of violence toward another human that the perpetrator has always had some underlying motive and it never had anything to do with purely evil intent and enjoyment?

---------- Post added 09-18-2009 at 10:59 PM ----------

odenskrigare;91619 wrote:

A Neural Basis for Sociopathy (Damasio 2000)

could you at least try to check facts before you hit "Submit Reply"

please?

please?

So now you are going to declare that every person who has ever committed crimes against their fellowman did so because they had a brain disorder!

1 Reply

@Kielicious,

Each case is different Pathfinder, I should know I have hundreds of books on it and I'm telling ya he's an evil sob and deserves nothing but rotting in jail, just check my previous post huh? Are you suggesting he shoud be free? How come, please tell?
Thanks.

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@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder;91602 wrote:

There is a mystery there that refuses to be nailed down to a category. That same mystery that holds the planets in orbit, where the first star was born, and where existence itself finds its first step. so mysterious that it can't even be comprehended by the human mind.

... I think it is uncontroversial that there are inscrutable mysteries ... why should there be such a thing as energy? ... such things as the fundamental forces of nature? ... why should organization and dynamics make a difference, allowing novel things to emerge in this universe, instead of this universe being one homogeneous equilibrium of nothing? ... these are the mysteries that hold the planets in orbit ... that led to the birth of the first star ... that led to human existence ... but the fact that these mysteries exist does not imply that we cannot understand the planetary orbits ... does not imply that we cannot understand the birth of the first star ... so then why should it imply that we cannot understand human existence? ... hubris? ...

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@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder;91620 wrote:

So now you are going to declare that every person who has ever committed crimes against their fellowman did so because they had a brain disorder!

many do ... I don't believe in free will. nobody has it, and in some people the cybernetic processes that produce general respect for society don't work.

but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to the humane containment and/or rehabilitation of these kinds of people. of course we need to do something

1 Reply

@Kielicious,

Just to help remind any readers what this thread is about here is the beginnining clip from the original post:

Kielicious: "So I've always been curious as to why some people subscribe to the idea that the mind and brain are not connected. This has always puzzled me because I haven't really seen good, if any, evidence that the two are separate. Now, obviously from an ontological perspective the mind and brain are distinct but to go further and claim that the mind doesn't correspond to the brain seems unwarranted, to say the least. The opposing view (that the mind and brain are connected) seems quite obvious to me and I'll show why..."

It is my opinion that the mind and the brain may or may not be connected in some way but the brain is certainly not the mind and the mind is not an imaginary concoction of metaphysics.

we have dragged this discussion through many arguments, and come to this point where I am asking if it is possible for you to concede that there is individual characteristics that define the nature of a person that is not related to brain function and can be very different from one person to another even though their brains are exactly the same. And I am suggesting that this difference is where the consciousness can be found as opposed to the suggestion that consciousness is merely brain function.

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder;91628 wrote:

we have dragged this discussion through many arguments, and come to this point where I am asking if it is possible for you to concede that there is individual characteristics that define the nature of a person that is not related to brain function and can be very different from one person to another even though their brains are exactly the same. And I am suggesting that this difference is where the consciousness can be found as opposed to the suggestion that consciousness is merely brain function.

... the short answer is "no" ... not because of any flaw in your logic, but because of a flaw in your assumptions ... brains are like snowflakes - no two are exactly alike ...

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@Kielicious,

So science is science, brain matter is brain matter and metaphysics is metaphyscis. What's the point Pathfinder?
Thanks.

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@odenskrigare,

odenskrigare;91625 wrote:

many do ... I don't believe in free will. nobody has it, and in some people the cybernetic processes that produce general respect for society don't work.

but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to the humane containment and/or rehabilitation of these kinds of people. of course we need to do something

Im afraid you have lived a life too close to home my friend.

When you look into the eyes of a truly evil man and know what he wants from you, you wiil suddenly realize how wrong you are!

This isn't about humane treatment or rehabilitation. this is about the difference between an evil man and a good man, and that it is not found in brain function but in character, in consciousness, in conscience.

You can deny evil all you want just like you would like to deny the mystery behind it all, but that kind of science will not find the answers we are looking for.

1 Reply

@Kielicious,

Exactly Hank, we are all different and that's what makes us human or not, what ever the case might be.
Thanks.

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@paulhanke,

paulhanke;91629 wrote:

... the short answer is "no" ... not because of any flaw in your logic, but because of a flaw in your assumptions ... brains are like snowflakes - no two are exactly alike ...

But isn't that the point of the biologists, that all brains are functioning in exactly the same way?

---------- Post added 09-18-2009 at 11:16 PM ----------

Caroline;91631 wrote:

So science is science, brain matter is brain matter and metaphysics is metaphyscis. What's the point Pathfinder?
Thanks.

What are you asking Caroline? That is exactly what this thread is about?

1 Reply

@Kielicious,

Biology is not the same as the soul, how come you're still arguing this?
Thanks.

---------- Post added 09-18-2009 at 11:19 PM ----------

And I told ya you cant debunk science with metaphysics and vice a versa, they are seperate entities, please listen or check my pp's.
Thanks.

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@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder;91632 wrote:

Im afraid you have lived a life too close to home my friend

I grew up in the 'hood

Pathfinder;91632 wrote:

When you look into the eyes of a truly evil man and know what he wants from you, you wiil suddenly realize how wrong you are!

this is an appeal to consequences of a belief

it's just gotten ridiculous now. try harder please

Pathfinder;91632 wrote:

This isn't about humane treatment or rehabilitation. this is about the difference between an evil man and a good man, and that it is not found in brain function but in character, in consciousness, in conscience

it depends how you define "conscience"

I define it as behavior ... neurally-based behavior! ... that generally has evolutionary advantages. trying to come to Pareto optimality

come forward when you have a shred of evidence that these things do not come from the brain. and mind you certain brain injuries appear to induce sociopathic behavior in some cases

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@paulhanke,

paulhanke;91629 wrote:

... the short answer is "no" ... not because of any flaw in your logic, but because of a flaw in your assumptions ... brains are like snowflakes - no two are exactly alike ...

The claim has been that the human consciousness is nothing more than the firing of electrodes in the brain. Every brain functions this way using the exact same method.

However the mind and thinking of the mass murderer is vastly different. In what way is the firing of his brain different than anyone else's? His brain is functioning exactly the same way yours and mine is.

And yet he has a very different character and nature than we do. Where in the biological explanation of consciousness is this differ4ence explained?

---------- Post added 09-18-2009 at 11:23 PM ----------

Caroline;91636 wrote:

Biology is not the same as the soul, how come you're still arguing this?
Thanks.

---------- Post added 09-18-2009 at 11:19 PM ----------

And I told ya you cant debunk science with metaphysics and vice a versa, they are seperate entities, please listen or check my pp's.
Thanks.

Who said anything about soul? Show me one place in any of the last 50 posts where the word soul is used?

2 Replies

Consciousness is a Biological Problem

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