Consciousness is a Biological Problem

So when the hard questions are asked and you have no answers you resort to ridicule?

Where the heck are the real scientific minds out there so we can actually have a real discussion on this topic? Scientists that are not afraid to go to the edge and look deeper. They got to be out there somewhere cause I see stuff written by them all the time.

Hey! Over here!

Yes. In particular, I would like to hear more about qualia.

I gave you a good answer for a particular question, even though I probably shouldn't have

you can't ask questions like "What is the mystery that drives the sperm to the egg?" and expect to be taken seriously, especially when there's a very obvious whip-like structure at the end

---------- Post added 09-18-2009 at 09:19 AM ----------

and most of them die by the way it's just blind luck that one finds its way

... Science Forums, The Original ...

---------- Post added 09-18-2009 at 06:55 AM ----------



... with respect to this thread, I presume you are asking about a biological basis for qualia? ... in response to that, AI is taking an interest in a developing approach to mind that attempts to integrate phenomenology and biology such that the two can inform each other and develop hypotheses that might not have occurred to either in isolation ... http://www.acadiau.ca/~dreid/enactivism/index.html ... (see also On the Role of AI in the Ongoing Paradigm Shift within the Cognitive Sciences - Cogprints and 50 years of artificial intelligence ... - Google Books) ... not that you'll find many answers there, but at least it is an approach that starts from experience (as opposed to presuming it can end at it) ...

We are all just people trying to figure things out in our own way. And once in a while I learn something new and for me that is enough.

Rich

That's interesing, where exactly? Show me some please.
Thanks.

Oden, there is NOOOOOO way that you do not understand the dynamic behind the mystery that drives the sperm to penetrate the egg. Oh you know alright!

I dont care if it has a whip or three thousand legs, there is some force that causes it to seek out the egg and fertilize it. What diff does it make whether it uses a flagellum or a Audi R8.
The point is that nothing can be concluded when the mystery between life and what causes it is still aloof. That mystery is the basis behind every question that halts you in your tacks and causes you to make a fool of yourself as you try to evade it. Whip indeed!

no there isn't. that's why there's millions of spermatazoa in the average load. if a guy shoots millions of them and only one actually hits (some of the time) that doesn't say much for accuracy does it? if you are at a rifle range, discharge 500,000,000 rounds, and the target only has one hole in it at the end, is that good marksmanship? Stevie Wonder could probably do better than that, be serious



the way I see it, "the proof is in the pudding"

the reason I adhere to the empiricist view of mind is because it has predictive power and can actually be used to do things

this, for example, is from the Office of Naval Research of the US Navy:

Human Systems: Neural Computation[INDENT]This program unit fosters research to elucidate the organization, structural bases, and operational algorithms characterizing information-processing networks within neural systems. The goal is the development of biological neural networks that incorporate the organizational principles and operational rules of real nervous systems that provide demonstrable enhancements in the capability of information processing systems. Research supported includes neural microcircuitry, in particular from cortical networks, and sensorimotor systems composed of multiple networks. The interest in microcircuitry is aimed at elucidating the principles of neural structure-function relationships, and identifying those aspects of connectivity, neural biophysics, and network dynamics that enable scaleable, powerful and efficient neural computation. The current priority for this program is development of large-scale cortical models, possibly embedded within larger neural systems, with demonstrable computational ability. The goal is to develop large-scale neocortical models with capabilities extending beyond pattern recognition into the domain of cognitive skills. New brain imaging technologies are providing important data on the neural substrates of cognition at the meso-scale provide an opportunity to bridge neuroscience and cognitive science accounts of cognitive skills. Interdisciplinary approaches that combine cognitive neuroscience and neural modeling based on biological principles are of particular interest. There is interest in computational neuroscience research aimed at developing models of neural structures involved in social interaction and neuroeconomics.[/INDENT]i.e., doing things

some of this is off in the future, I admit, but I can name plenty of things that are a reality now because people had the bravery to challenge touchy-feely "life is magical" conventions:

• agriculture: this is pretty straightforward. we all benefit from agriculture. the food we eat comes from the natural machinery of crops. this can be tinkered with, genetically engineered. genetic engineering has been a smashing success for thousands of years, because wheat isn't magical and doesn't have free will
  
• any kind of current surgery: treating the body as a kind of machine has predictive power. it can be used to do things, like repair it. you want to believe the many injuries are person can suffer stem from an unfathomable magic, and there's nothing can be done? k see you at the morgue
  
• antibiotics, vaccinations: instead of attributing infectious disease to malevolent spirits or the wrath of God, we now attribute it to physical agents. measles, mumps, rubella, varicella, polio, smallpox, etc. ... these diseases which crippled, disfigured and killed billions over human history really no longer exist in the industrialized world. you can thank the empirical worldview for that, not "bla bla bla some mysterious force bla bla bla" or "all is in flux"
  
• electronic anything: electricity was once seen as a magical power too. once we found out that it wasn't, we could harness it to do useful things, like ... lighting
  
• genetic programming: evolution is also useful when you don't bull**** around and pretend it's metaphysical speculation. genetic programming, actually evolving algorithms from random beginnings with natural selection, has provided solutions to very tough problems where other methods absolutely failed
  
• neural networks: 2nd generation neural networks, computers at least loosely based on how brains work, are all over the place, power distribution, telephone switching and in a lot of other common applications. they do what other methods have a very hard time with, or can't do at all. here again, yielding to the comforting temptation to believe that we humans are the pinnacle of life on Earth, and our abilities can't be copied, which is what you are really doing, is counterproductive. take the mystery out of the mind, or at least try, and you can do something really useful things
  

there's much more that could be named, but neural networks seem like a good place to wrap up. the 3rd generation, biologically inspired ANNs is now underway. these promise immense power. again:

"The goal is to develop large-scale neocortical models with capabilities extending beyond pattern recognition into the domain of cognitive skills"

this is the Office of Naval Research ... we're not talking about comic book stuff here. and it means, in the short term, much more flexible processing power at the very least. long term? I have my own ideas. many bona fide experts would agree actually



the incredible things that have been accomplished in this field, and the even more incredible things that will be accomplished require us to abandon comforting mystical delusions

indeed, as far as I know, the sum total of real-world accomplishments of the "life is mysterious, life is magical" doctrine to date amount to: jack

but if you can you point to one useful thing that has been accomplished, or is even likely to be accomplished at some point in the future by "all is in flux," and "nature likes to hide," and "you're making a fool of yourself," and "THAT," and the rest of this three-ring circus you and rich are trotting out in this thread, feel free to point it out

if not, you should really think harder about whose ideas are foolish

None of these things would have ever been accomplished by those minds if they thought as you do.

These people were not held back by a closed mind which is what enabled them to make the discoveries and accomplishments that they did. Explorers and leading edge minds do not become great successes with an attitude toward the unknown like you have.

People who are afraid to face the unknown simply hide in their comfortable realities and never learn anything new.

if you actually read my post you'd notice that many of the achievements I'm talking about were done by people who based their work on precisely the same viewpoints you are railing against here

what are neuroscientists, psychologists, and cognitive scientists doing if not trying to banish mystery from the mind?

neural networks were achieved by who? mystics?

how would you have gone about it?



you gotta be ****ting me. you don't even know me, experiments and things I've done that could have gotten me killed, having to fight the status quo at every step of the way ... I'm a drone in your eyes and you've never even met me. christ almighty is this ever galling. I'm just ... flummoxed now ... flummoxed, that someone who speaks for insipid mainstream views so well has the gumption to call me close-minded



please ban yourself from the Internet

... I think the same might also be said of people who are afraid to face the known ...

Yeah you got that right Hank.

Your hypothesis here goes nicely with my theory..that all energy is grouped into a collective consciousness...and thus that energy has intellect and consciousness.

Jamie

I have no problem with science my friends. I glorify the champions just like you all do.

My problem is with any of them that step out of bounds and do great injustice to those heroes by making claims that are not warranting the merit.

When one wants to really talk about human consciousness with an open mind and build a science around ALL of the details I am ready to hear and listen and enjoy with great excitement.

When one wants to tackle that extremely mysterious topic with a biased attitude that there is nothing mysterious about it, than I have a problem. And so do they because people like myself will ask all of the pertinent questions and drive them mad as they desperately try to evade the mystery. Flummoxed even!

Whip indeed! HAH!

Pathfinder the above post, well I cannot see anything that contributes to this thread, please find something more constuctive to say in future posts and contribute not derail, that is not the point of debate and I fail to see anything contributive in the above post, please refrain from doing this again so the thread can continues on the right track.
Thanks.

It always comes down to the same old barrier doesn't it!

That crucial mystery between life and pre-life.

The mystery of life and death and the crisscrossing borders that this mystery touches upon.

What is that great Force behind everything that we take for granted?

That is the key to all of these great mysteries. Its where the truth lies and the ultimate answer is revealed.

The Origin! The Other side! The Motivator! The Designer!

Some call it God! Some call it science! Some call it abiogensis!

From the most minute scrap of dirt to the most complex crystal these exist from some beginning.

Nothing can exist without origin. Everything that exists has an origin and because it has an origin it also has an end. Nothing can deny the end, and nothing can deny its origin.

The human consciousness will never be revealed as material of the brain, and science will never find the answers without asking all of the questions.

There is certain facts of life that are inescapable and that there are evil people in this world is obvious. What is it that makes an evil man the way that he is? If consciousness is merely brain material doing its natural function how does this explain the difference between an evil minded man and the good willed man?

this evil is just the way it is, It is the nature of the man, they are what they are! There is this little thing called character and some people are just plain evil.

It has nothing to do with brain function. It is somewhere in this identity, this individual character of a person that consciousness finds itself. It is not something that can be seen under a microscope or probed with a tool. It is just nature being what it is.

There is a mystery there that refuses to be nailed down to a category. That same mystery that holds the planets in orbit, where the first star was born, and where existence itself finds its first step. so mysterious that it can't even be comprehended by the human mind.

The great vastness of space cannot hide it. It can be plainly seen in everything all around us. It does not even try to hide. And yet it remains the most elusive fact of life that man seeks after.

What is the cause of all of this?

We can either assume that all of this just appeared out of nowhere!

OR

We can ask the obvious questions!

There are no other choices! All of these attempts to address the questions of this mystery as though anything metaphysical is unworthy of scientific consideration is mere evasion.

The obvious questions are those that begin with How and why?

The foolish choose to conclude that they have the answers.

People are evil Pathfinder because they chose to be, they have a choice, you of all people shoud know that, how come you don't, please, pray tell?

I and others have addressed the issue of the hard problem of consciousness before this juvenile outburst

the honest answer is "we don't know"

and that includes all of you

Caroline, if you are going to moderate please do so with some courtesy!

You may not agree with my views but please do not try to belittle my comments in such a way.

This thread is speaking to the human consciousness and whether or not it is mere biological function.

Many here are arguing that there is nothing mysterious about the human consciousness and that is all a matter of biology.

I and a few others disagree with that and have posted many responses telling why we disagree.

Suddenly you come along and tell me that my thoughts are not worthy of consideration?

I find it a great betrayal to science to belittle studies as complexing as the human psyche by downplaying the metaphysical aspect of it. That is the point of my post. Now what did you find out of sorts with it?

And please stop derailing the thread Pathfinder, I wont ask you again, incase you haven't noticed I've Tweeted this thread which means lots of people will be seeing it.
Thanks.