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Climate Change Politics

 
 
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 09:34 pm
News from Down Under:

SYDNEY - Australia's Parliament defeated legislation to set up a greenhouse gas emissions trading system on Wednesday, throwing a central plank of the government's plans to combat global warming into disarray.


It is good to see that the Australians have refused to be stampeded. And, along with the scandal coming out of East Anglia in England about cooking the data on climate change, things are beginning to turn better. We'll see what happens in Copenhagen. It is pretty clear that the United States Senate is not going to be stampeded either. So, hope springs eternal.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 15,689 • Replies: 354
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jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 03:08 am
@kennethamy,
Got any science, or just polemics?

If you are going to start a debate on one of the most vexed and vexing issues in current world events, do you have any facts, or just tabloid sentiment?

---------- Post added 12-02-2009 at 08:25 PM ----------

furthermore nobody was being stampeded here. It was until this week a bi-partisan policy that substantially resembled the policy that the Conservatives took to the last election. It has been under development for 10 years, has been subject to a number of enquiries, and an exhaustive research and consultation process.

What has actually happened is that the right wing of the party fomented a scare campaign based on the idea that climate change is a left-wing conspiracy to undermine capitalism (they said this on television) and then rolled the moderates who had already negotiated an extremely modest climate change amelioration bill with the Labour government.

So the Liberals have, as some commentators said, 'taken a step backward and to the right'. My prediction is that there will be electoral backlash. But most of all I am very saddened that a broad consensus on combating a real threat has been shattered by the right wing, the chance may not come again for some time.

So much for opinion. Henceforth everything I contribute to this thread will be referenced.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 07:01 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;107521 wrote:
Got any science, or just polemics?

If you are going to start a debate on one of the most vexed and vexing issues in current world events, do you have any facts, or just tabloid sentiment?

---------- Post added 12-02-2009 at 08:25 PM ----------

furthermore nobody was being stampeded here. It was until this week a bi-partisan policy that substantially resembled the policy that the Conservatives took to the last election. It has been under development for 10 years, has been subject to a number of enquiries, and an exhaustive research and consultation process.

What has actually happened is that the right wing of the party fomented a scare campaign based on the idea that climate change is a left-wing conspiracy to undermine capitalism (they said this on television) and then rolled the moderates who had already negotiated an extremely modest climate change amelioration bill with the Labour government.

So the Liberals have, as some commentators said, 'taken a step backward and to the right'. My prediction is that there will be electoral backlash. But most of all I am very saddened that a broad consensus on combating a real threat has been shattered by the right wing, the chance may not come again for some time.

So much for opinion. Henceforth everything I contribute to this thread will be referenced.


I suppose that what you mean by "broad consensus" is a "broad consensus" that climate change is an indisputable truth, and the world has to go back at least 100 years. The latest events from East Anglia remind me of two tales: The Boy who Cried "Wolf", and The Emperor's Clothes. Like many others of your view, you sound as if someone has challenged, and insulted, your religion.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 08:32 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;107530 wrote:
I suppose that what you mean by "broad consensus" is a "broad consensus" that climate change is an indisputable truth, and the world has to go back at least 100 years. The latest events from East Anglia remind me of two tales: The Boy who Cried "Wolf", and The Emperor's Clothes. Like many others of your view, you sound as if someone has challenged, and insulted, your religion.
I think you should be wary of challenging the consensus of opinion on one rogue report.Energy and Global Warming News for October 26: Markey expands “clean coal” forged letter investigation Climate Progress
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 08:59 am
@xris,
xris;107547 wrote:
I think you should be wary of challenging the consensus of opinion on one rogue report.Energy and Global Warming News for October 26: Markey expands "clean coal" forged letter investigation Climate Progress



There was no "rogue report". These were purloined e-mails which showed how the data were being cooked, and how contrary data were being suppressed.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 09:30 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;107555 wrote:
There was no "rogue report". These were purloined e-mails which showed how the data were being cooked, and how contrary data were being suppressed.
So whats your point? one rogue research, does that make the argument invalid. I see you dont mention my link.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 09:40 am
@xris,
xris;107563 wrote:
So whats your point? one rogue research, does that make the argument invalid. I see you dont mention my link.


My point is that the University at East Anglia is a very important source of climate change data, and very influential. And, it wasn't only that university, it was also what went on in (say) the University of Pennsylvania whose data are now being scrutinized. This is not the end, it it only the start. Your link concerned something entirely different from what I can tell. What was its point?
Jay phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 10:27 am
@kennethamy,
Just a hunch-
With our recent success of material control and power, we seem to have lost our sense of danger. No other species seems to make this error of perspective the way our species has. I would call it titanic arrogance.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 11:28 am
@Jay phil,
Jay;107576 wrote:
Just a hunch-
No other species seems to make this error of perspective the way our species has.

Rabbits do all the time.

"We've a surfeit of local resources - let's make babies like it's going out of fashion!"

Time passes...

"There's no grass left - let's die out in droves!"

http://geoinfo.amu.edu.pl/wpk/pe/a/harbbook/c_xvi/population/historicalpop.gif
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 11:31 am
@Jay phil,
Jay;107576 wrote:
Just a hunch-
With our recent success of material control and power, we seem to have lost our sense of danger. No other species seems to make this error of perspective the way our species has. I would call it titanic arrogance.


But what has that to do with the manipulation of data?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 01:04 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;107584 wrote:
But what has that to do with the manipulation of data?
Its got nothing to do with it Ken but your attitude has. You select one deviant and you ignore the overwhelming evidence. You ignore my link as if it does not exist. Its called selective reasoning.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 01:15 pm
@kennethamy,
University of East Anglia incident does not undermine the evidence for human-induced climate change.

There is plenty of data that remains unchallenged, and a broad consensus amongst the large majority of disinerested scientists that action needs to be taken.

Why conservatives are opposed to the science is beyond me. If action is not taken there will be precious little left to conserve.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 01:18 pm
@xris,
xris;107601 wrote:
Its got nothing to do with it Ken but your attitude has. You select one deviant and you ignore the overwhelming evidence. You ignore my link as if it does not exist. Its called selective reasoning.


I select what is relevant. What makes you think that East Anglia is deviant? I mentioned the the University of Pa. East Anglia has been caught. But that does not make it deviant. In any case, the e-mails went all around the globe.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 01:29 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;107606 wrote:
I select what is relevant. What makes you think that East Anglia is deviant? I mentioned the the University of Pa. East Anglia has been caught. But that does not make it deviant. In any case, the e-mails went all around the globe.
Ken why dont you comment on my link? The only objectors are those with vested interests. King coal aint going to every lie down and the might oil barons have muddied the water for years. All the opposition and the intrigue against the scientific evidence is manipulated by these self interested giants. You pounce on this one silly incidence as if it secures your point of view conclusively, it's ridiculous.
Jay phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 01:32 pm
@kennethamy,


If you will read my statement carefully you will see that I am not saying that other species do not engage in overpopulation or depleting the resources. I am saying that our species has raised it to a compulsion with dire consequences like no other species

If you are drawing attention to over population as a more primary reason for the problems we are having globally, I would certainly agree, and global warming is one of them.

I don't think that you are suggesting that we are biologically determined to follow the way of the rabbit's are you? We can change and try to altar the mindless course we seem to be on. That is basically all I am suggesting. Rabbits do not have a choice I think we do.

"But what has that to do with the manipulation of the data?"


I would be grateful if you would post a link or two to this gross problem of "manipulation of data."

Thanks
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 01:59 pm
@xris,
xris;107610 wrote:
Ken why dont you comment on my link? The only objectors are those with vested interests. King coal aint going to every lie down and the might oil barons have muddied the water for years. All the opposition and the intrigue against the scientific evidence is manipulated by these self interested giants. You pounce on this one silly incidence as if it secures your point of view conclusively, it's ridiculous.


Because I simply don't see what it has to do with the issue.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 02:03 pm
@Jay phil,
Jay;107611 wrote:
I don't think that you are suggesting that we are biologically determined to follow the way of the rabbit's are you?

Pretty much, yeah.

I mean - we're no more of an actor than other species - and when they denude their ecological niche of the resources they need to sustain their population their only recourse is to a massive population crash - the downward slope of the bell curve that the exponential rise leads up to.

It's less apparent to us because our ecological niche is now most of the surface of the land of the planet - and some of the water too - but we are managing to effect that (we could not not effect that - all organisms have a footprint).

But as this thread proves - we are as a gestalt too moronic to agree on the threat, too greedy for more than our fair share, and too desperate for consolation that we'll assume aberrations to the trends involved in understanding the threat mean we don't have cause for concern.

Even if as a gestalt we were intelligent enough to recognise what we're actually doing - getting to a point were we can do something about it strikes me as unlikely.

So reconcile yourself to the fact your descendents will be digging mass graves and enjoy your life.

People like Ken WILL NOT have it any other way.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 02:03 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;107620 wrote:
Because I simply don't see what it has to do with the issue.
The issue is, you are very selective in your attention to certain events. Dog **** on your shoes does not indicate the world is covered in the stuff.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 02:03 pm
@Jay phil,
Jay;107611 wrote:


If you will read my statement carefully you will see that I am not saying that other species do not engage in overpopulation or depleting the resources. I am saying that our species has raised it to a compulsion with dire consequences like no other species

If you are drawing attention to over population as a more primary reason for the problems we are having globally, I would certainly agree, and global warming is one of them.

I don't think that you are suggesting that we are biologically determined to follow the way of the rabbit's are you? We can change and try to altar the mindless course we seem to be on. That is basically all I am suggesting. Rabbits do not have a choice I think we do.

"But what has that to do with the manipulation of the data?"


I would be grateful if you would post a link or two to this gross problem of "manipulation of data."

Thanks


Well try this. But it is all over the internet, and in the newspapers, and television. Just put in "Climate change e-mails" into a search engine.

CBC News - World - Hackers skewed climate-change emails: scientists
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 02:16 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;107625 wrote:
Well try this. But it is all over the internet, and in the newspapers, and television. Just put in "Climate change e-mails" into a search engine.

CBC News - World - Hackers skewed climate-change emails: scientists
There is nothing conclusive in this report as it has been taken out of context and deliberately manipulated. Why are you so blinkered in your attention? are you afraid of the real truth? The report, in a paper desperate for news even admits its been a selective in the emails chosen and the claims are not to be trusted. Are you honestly telling me you dont believe world temperatures have not been rising?
 

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