61
   

The Confederacy was About Slavery

 
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 04:36 am
@electronicmail,
As i said, typical online hysteria.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 04:39 am
@electronicmail,
You seem to be trying to pick a fight with anything that gets in your way no? Now you want to argue sex since your civil rights argument is tanking.

While the Dictionary has 17 definitions for "MAn" one that is of legal import is the following
Quote:
"The human creature or being, as representative of the species, or as distinguished from other animate beings,animals,or things; The Human Race;Mankind.
I think you knew that but were trying to be purposely dense on the uptake.
electronicmail
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 04:44 am
@farmerman,
You're really funny. When did women get the vote, exactly?

Hint 1: it wasn't in 1865. Hint 2: not on January 1st 1863 either.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 04:47 am
And that has what to do with whether or not the southern confederacy was an institution to preserve slavery?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 04:49 am
@electronicmail,
The point is irrelevant to this discussion. You are just trying to backpeddle so you dont keep looking ignorant of the main issues.

The institution herein is SLAVERY not UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE. If you wish to start a thread on suffrage, feel free.

electronicmail
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 05:04 am
@farmerman,
Anybody wants to know who the ignorant ones are can check the previous couple of pages.
Aidan: makes long post on segregation and water fountains and instantly forgets mentioning either
Snood: makes yet another hysterical post confusing dependent and independent variables
Edgar: brings up Douglass whose name he obviously never saw written down
You: talk of "all men are created equal" acquiring true meaning on abolition of slavery and forgetting the women
Setanta: thinks the 10th is in conflict with the 1st when the real conflict of States' Rights is with the Supremacy Clause

I ain't gonna continue with let me count the ways....
Too many of them.
Have a good day.

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 05:27 am
@electronicmail,
That's right, spread your bullshit and then run away. I did not at any point state that the tenth amendment was in conflict with "the first." (Apparently, you can't distinguish between articles of the constitution and amendments to the constitution.) The tenth amendment reads: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. To emphasize: " . . . nor prohibited by it to the States . . ."--Article one, Section Ten prohibits the states from forming confederacies--no conflict there, case closed.

What a maroon . . .
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 05:49 am
@electronicmail,
I didn't forget mentioning either - I was wondering how fountains had been replaced by newspapers- maybe your analogy wasn't very clear- or maybe yeah - I have dementia (that could be it)-just like the confederacy HAS GOT to be about one thing and not the other.

Okay, answer me this - if the color of the slave's skin had nothing to do with the white man's willingness to look at him/her as less than deserving of freedom and liberty and tradeable/saleable/chattel - if it had nothing to do with the white man's disdain of the black human being - why didn't they trade white people for money (and I'm talking specifically in the confederacy)?

I mean to use the drug analogy - if all you want to do is make money - you can sell pot, ludes, heroin, cocain...it all turns into money right?
What difference would it have made to sell a little white boy or girl instead of a little black boy or girl to work the fields and reap rewards without having to pay the worker?

And I do read the newspapers - that's why I know there's still a divide in terms of how white people think about themselves and how they think about other races.
failures art
 
  3  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 06:30 am
I am really taken back at the responses in this thread. Why does it matter how many Americans believe if the confederacy was about slavery? This is a matter of world history, not just some matter of American opinions.

Why is this so difficult to digest? Why are people afraid to admit this? What is it exactly that they don't like about the implication? It seems that the concerns on the matters of slavery and the confederacy are more focused, by some, on anything but the sale of humans as livestock. Disgusting.

A
R
T
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 06:34 am
@failures art,
AS far as the foreigners who try to "keep up" Im not so critical (unless of course one is extremely insulting and arrogntly ignorant). However, being a native AMerican and being a slavery denier is sad.

snood
 
  3  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 06:44 am
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

I am really taken back at the responses in this thread. Why does it matter how many Americans believe if the confederacy was about slavery? This is a matter of world history, not just some matter of American opinions.

Why is this so difficult to digest? Why are people afraid to admit this? What is it exactly that they don't like about the implication? It seems that the concerns on the matters of slavery and the confederacy are more focused, by some, on anything but the sale of humans as livestock. Disgusting.

A
R
T


It is understandably very upsetting to anyone with a mind and conscience - the replies. I try to stand back from it and ask myself the same questions you just posed - why is it so hard for some people to accept that one of the most horrible wars in history was fought mainly over the right to own humans as livestock? The answers to that question that I come up with add heavy sadness.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 07:36 am
The war's aftermath, all the way through the 20TH Century, likely has much to do with it. Institutionalized racism went mostly unchecked, in one form or another, throughout vey broad areas of the nation.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 08:55 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

The war's aftermath, all the way through the 20TH Century, likely has much to do with it. Institutionalized racism went mostly unchecked, in one form or another, throughout vey broad areas of the nation.


I just read this about a teaparty politician's racist email. Occasionally, an acquaintance who is unaware of my politics will send me some teaparty originated stuff. Not as bad as this, but this is a taste of what kind of racism - institutionalized, internalized, deeply in the culture - still lives on strong as ever. Hell, 46% of Mississippi Republicans want interracial marriages outlawed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/16/marilyn-davenports-racist_n_850063.html
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 09:07 am
One of my old Navy buddies has a Teaparty guy in his family. The guy sends him endless streams of such emails, many of which gets forwarded to me by my friend. He says he deplores this crap, but he sends it on to me so that I will be aware of what is being passed around. I get it from acquaintances also.
ABE5177
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 09:28 am
@edgarblythe,
hey i got it in my email to from people in my church against evolution
caption so that's why there's no birth certificate
http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/President_Obama_Monkeys-thumb-480x341-300x213.jpg
why doeas everything have to be racist it's a joke?
edgarblythe
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 09:30 am
@ABE5177,
ABE5177 wrote:

hey i got it in my email to from people in my church against evolution
caption so that's why there's no birth certificate
http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/President_Obama_Monkeys-thumb-480x341-300x213.jpg
why doeas everything have to be racist it's a joke?



Right. It's a joke - A racist inspired, hate-filled joke - Nothing to get upset about.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 09:51 am
http://www.livescience.com/13673-civil-war-anniversary-myths.html

Quote:
Myth #1: The Civil War wasn't about slavery.

The most widespread myth is also the most basic. Across America, 60 percent to 75 percent of high-school history teachers believe and teach that the South seceded for state's rights, said Jim Loewen, author of "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" (Touchstone, 1996) and co-editor of "The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader: The 'Great Truth' about the 'Lost Cause'" (University Press of Mississippi, 2010).

"It's complete B.S.," Loewen told LiveScience. "And by B.S., I mean 'bad scholarship.'"

In fact, Loewen said, the original documents of the Confederacy show quite clearly that the war was based on one thing: slavery. For example, in its declaration of secession, Mississippi explained, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world … a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization." In its declaration of secession, South Carolina actually comes out against the rights of states to make their own laws — at least when those laws conflict with slaveholding. "In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals," the document reads. The right of transit, Loewen said, was the right of slaveholders to bring their slaves along with them on trips to non-slaveholding states.

In its justification of secession, Texas sums up its view of a union built upon slavery: "We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable."

The myth that the war was not about slavery seems to be a self-protective one for many people, said Stan Deaton, the senior historian at the Georgia Historical Society.

"People think that somehow it demonizes their ancestors," to have fought for slavery, Deaton told LiveScience. But the people fighting at the time were very much aware of what was at stake, Deaton said.

"[Defining the war] is our problem," he said. "I don't think it was theirs."
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 09:54 am
@DrewDad,
Five myths about why the South seceded

Quote:
3. Most white Southerners didn't own slaves, so they wouldn't secede for slavery.

Indeed, most white Southern families had no slaves. Less than half of white Mississippi households owned one or more slaves, for example, and that proportion was smaller still in whiter states such as Virginia and Tennessee. It is also true that, in areas with few slaves, most white Southerners did not support secession. West Virginia seceded from Virginia to stay with the Union, and Confederate troops had to occupy parts of eastern Tennessee and northern Alabama to hold them in line.

However, two ideological factors caused most Southern whites, including those who were not slave-owners, to defend slavery. First, Americans are wondrous optimists, looking to the upper class and expecting to join it someday. In 1860, many subsistence farmers aspired to become large slave-owners. So poor white Southerners supported slavery then, just as many low-income people support the extension of George W. Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy now.

Second and more important, belief in white supremacy provided a rationale for slavery. As the French political theorist Montesquieu observed wryly in 1748: "It is impossible for us to suppose these creatures [enslaved Africans] to be men; because allowing them to be men, a suspicion would follow that we ourselves are not Christians." Given this belief, most white Southerners -- and many Northerners, too -- could not envision life in black-majority states such as South Carolina and Mississippi unless blacks were in chains. Georgia Supreme Court Justice Henry Benning, trying to persuade the Virginia Legislature to leave the Union, predicted race war if slavery was not protected. "The consequence will be that our men will be all exterminated or expelled to wander as vagabonds over a hostile earth, and as for our women, their fate will be too horrible to contemplate even in fancy." Thus, secession would maintain not only slavery but the prevailing ideology of white supremacy as well.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 12:07 pm
Leaving aside the institutional racism, the personal racism of so many people in the world--not just Americans--is so deeply ingrained culturally that it might ineradicable. Anyone who can look at that image of Mr. Obama as chimp and not see that it is racist, or allege that "it's just a joke," has it so ingrained in their subliminal consciousness as to suggest to me that it would never be rooted out. As a white American, i know that racism--casual, unquestioned and in an odd sense "benign" racism--pervades the culture. There are many, many, far too many white people who don't necessarily hate black people, they just happen to "know" that they are inferior.

Admitting the war was about slavery cuts way to close to the cultural bone. It makes racism an issue as between white folks. Consider, for example, what a "hero" R. E. Lee is to Americans.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2011 12:10 pm
@Setanta,
Excellent post, setanta.
0 Replies
 
 

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