61
   

The Confederacy was About Slavery

 
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 02:18 am
@snood,
Well, sort of . . . that would have been the conscious attitudes which predominated, certainly. However, i suggest to you that abolitionists were motivated in large measure by religious conviction. It is worth keeping in mind that many of the most militant abolitionists came from wealthy or at least comfortably well-off New England families, many of whose wealth was founded on a long and lucrative involvement in the slave trade by their ancestors. In the years before the revolution, many New Englanders followed an established trade route. They would take rum to England and Holland (often smuggling--both because it was technically illegal to trade directly with Holland, and because there were Englishman prepared to take their rum cargo off their ships and pay cash on the barrelhead, at little risk to the Yankee merchants), and there they would pick up cheap trade goods. They would use those trade goods to buy slaves in west Africa, and then take the slaves to the West Indies, and there would buy molasses (often, once again, smuggling, because they would buy molasses from French and Dutch-controlled islands, and even if bought from English-controlled islands, they would smuggle it back into New England). With that molasses, they'd make more rum, and start the cycle over again.

There was a concommitant trade cycle--in the South, especially in South Carolina, the planters would produce livestock and crops for sale in the West Indies (in South Carolina they grew rice, a cheap way to feed slaves). They'd then buy slaves in the West Indies to take back to mainland North America.

After the revolution, though, those trade routes withered, although southerners could still sell rice and livestock in the West Indies. They'd be taking a risk to attempt to smuggle in slaves, though, and usually didn't. The constitution prohibited the slave trade after 1808. The New England merchants dropped out of the slave trade pretty quickly, and it just wasn't worth the risk for southern planters. Slave smuggling continued, though--after the War of 1812, the Lafitte brothers of Louisiana smuggled in slaves out of their base in Galvez Town (modern Galveston), then a part of Mexico. They were briefly abetted in this by James Bowie--"hero" of the Alamo.

But on balance, slavery was not the huge financial incentive that people claim it was. The same thing happened in the American south that happened in the western Roman Empire. Huge slave driven operations in olive oil, wine, pottery and cloth were set up by members of the senatorial class in Rome, and managed for them by members of the order of Equites, which is usually translated as "knights." Little understanding what we call basic economics, they destroyed the economy of the western empire, although it took centuries. Small holders and small craftsmen couldn't compete with the slave driven enterprises, so they would sometime (but not often) migrate to other parts of the empire, or they would drift into the cities, mostly Rome, looking for occasional casual labor and getting the dole--the "bread and circuses" which wise imperial administrations provided them. The latifundia, the large slave-driven entrerprises, increasingly relied on purchases by the imperial adminsitration, and the imperial administration in turn debased the currency to meet its expenses, leading to an artificial and accelerating inflation. Coins of the later empire struck in the western portion reached the point where they had as little as 4% silver in them, the rest being mostly lead. People may not have understood the economics, but they sure knew worthless coins when they were foisted on them--prices inevitably rose continuously.

A similar thing happened in the American south. Small holders who couldn't afford slaves couldn't produce enough tobacco or cotton to make a decent living, and institutions like the tobacco autction barns (the only places where buyers would come for their tobacco) institutionalized the lack of parity. To get your crop into the tobacco barns, you had to know somebody, and small holders usually ended up selling their crop to a large planter for far less than they would have gotten if they could have freely participated in the auction. As recently as the early 1980s, i heard farmers in North Carolina complaining about the corruption of the tobacco barns, so it seems that some things haven't changed much.

Small craftsmen faced the same kind of almost insurmountable competition. Why would a planter go to a blacksmith in town when he could simply train one of his more biddable slaves in the trade, or borrow a slave already trained as a smith from another planter? This created two economies in the south--the economy of the planters and the depressed economy of the small holders and small craftsmen. If you made furniture locally, your only likely customers were other poor small holders or small craftsman. Those members of this class had few options, either hereditary poverty or getting out and going north.

As early as 1758, George Washington identified the system of shameless exploitation by which English merchants mulcted American planters. He diversified his crops, stopped growing tobacco for sale to the English traders, and spent years paying off what he and the Mount Vernon estate (he inherited the estate from his half brother) owed in England. But most planters simply continued their relationships with the English merchants, or formed new ones with the French. It was a lazy man's way of doing business--the small ships of the European trading houses could often sail up coastal rivers and dock right at the plantation, and when they loaded their cargo, they'd be given a list of goods the planter wanted them to bring back on the next voyage. The English sold them shoddy goods at outrageous prices, and they were so addicted to the system that southern states steadily and vociferous opposed the tariffs designed to protect New England manufacturing--even though, essentially, they were being robbed by the Europeans.

But people didn't understand economics in that kind of detail then, and tradition would have been the biggest motivating factor. Contemporty "experts" continue to claim that there was an enormous economic benefit to slavery, but it benefited only a priveleged minority in the South. So certain portions of the southern population of small holders undoubtedly supported slavery because they had ambitions of being slave-owners themselves some day. Sort of like the poor saps who support Republican tax cuts which don't benefit them because they dream of being rich themselves some day. By and large, one of the most persistent myths of American history is that slavery was a big economic benefit. While it is true that a great deal of our foreign exchange came from tobacco and cotton, it is not necessarily true that that foreign exchange was necessary to the nation's economic health. Even without the tariff which they hoped would protect their industries, northern manufacturers had, until the early 20th century, an almost inexhaustible market for their goods among the immigrants who came here and headed west to get cheap land. It's a toss-up whether the foreign exchange from slave-produced crops like tobacco and cotton outweighed the constant, institutional economic depression for farmers and small craftsmen in the South, and i have always believed that more white people suffered as a result of slavery than the number who benefited from it.

So, to actually return to your question--yes, people thought in those terms then, and largely still think in those terms now. However, as with almost every field of human study--it's not just that simple.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 02:27 am
@Ionus,
Well, we can be safe in the knowledge that we dont live in Australia where this guy is passed off as spmeone knowledgeable in the subject. I think everyone has gotten the picture, no further evidence is needed to be provided. If you notice, ANUS's own bleatings contain not one piece of evidence that is offered by respected sources of data . Weve quoted several, and several posts from actual Congressional logs and the CR.
He wishes to continue a losing POV for some reason. Maybe he learned it that way in his school. Its obvious he has either not rewad all the pevious evidence or else hes just dismissed it in his effort not to spoil his perfect record of ignorance.

To bad that history has gotten into the way of his fantasy.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 07:53 am
@snood,
Southerners are all about state's rights, right up until some woman in New Jersey needs an abortion.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 04:57 pm
@snood,
Quote:
assclown
?? I hope you didnt wear out the pages of your dictionary looking for that one.....
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 05:06 pm
@aidan,
Are you assuming your opinion comes from reading and personal experience and mine comes from ignorance ? Why would you assume I do not know the things you are writing about ?

How many USAians have I met ? How many scholarly books have I read giving divergent opinions ? Where have I traveled and what have I seen ? How many books have I written ? What documentary film companies have I worked with ? Where did I go when I was in the army, who did I meet and who did I talk to ? Who am I discussing this thread with now ? What are my qualifications to discuss this topic ?

Quote:
Read about the Abolitionist movement
Are you assuming I havent ?
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 05:14 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
we can be safe in the knowledge that we dont live in Australia
It is very appropriate for you to be a racist in this thread.....I see you as a drunken swaggering plantation owner raping the black girls .

Quote:
He wishes to continue a losing POV
Your opinion is meaningless to me . It is so full of yourself as to be worthless .

Quote:
ANUS's own bleatings contain not one piece of evidence that is offered by respected sources of data .
You write an entire post with nothing but bleating and you have the stupidity to say that ? Not one piece of evidence ? Are you sure ? Would you like to bet ?

Quote:
To bad that history has gotten into the way of his fantasy.
Like your precious little fantasy that white people were so nice they fought to free the slaves from the white people who were so evil they fought to keep slaves.....why are you so fucked in the head ? The bloodiest war in USA history and you think it wasnt about power and money, it was about niceness....

Are you all liquored up again ?!? Try AA....

Gomer the Turd must seek help .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 05:15 pm
What other wars did the USA fight out of niceness ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 05:17 pm
@Setanta,
An informative dispassionate post . Well written, Setanta .
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 08:48 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:

Are you assuming your opinion comes from reading and personal experience and mine comes from ignorance ?

No, you don't strike me as ignorant.

Quote:
Why would you assume I do not know the things you are writing about ?
Well, have you lived there? Have you lived in a northern US neighborhood with African-American neighbors and in a southern US neighborhood with African-American neighbors, so that you could make sustained and daily observations and compare the two?

It's akin to the fact that I might know what 85 degrees farenheit looks like on a thermometer, but I also know that it feels different in San Antonio, Texas than it does in East Brunswick New Jersey, or Somerset, England or probably Perth, Australia (which I couldn't begin to describe as I've never been there).

It's an environment that has to be experienced to be understood.
It's not only about what can be read and measured factually. It's more about how it FEELS- especially when it comes to something as amorphous yet pervasive as relations between races.

Look, I've travelled the north and south extensively. I can tell you that I can FEEL a difference when I walk in a restaurant south of Washington DC as opposed to north of the beltline.
And I'm not saying it's all bad feeling- but there IS a difference- that no one can measure or describe to someone who isn't there to feel it.
And I can feel the atmosphere change again when I hit Orlando. So between Washington, DC, through southern Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia (coincidentally, all formerly confederate states) down into central Florida, there IS a vibe.
Then it changes back and Miami is wonderful - might as well be little Cuba - I love it and then I can't even describe how free you feel in the florida keys.

Places have their ghosts and retain their historical flavors.
Go to Charleston and Savannah sometime - you get the flavor there much moreso than in modern day Atlanta.

I don't hate the south- in many ways I love it.
But the legacy of slavery is still much more apparent there than in the north and I think it's because of the historical mindset of the people in the south as compared to the north.

Quote:
How many USAians have I met ? How many scholarly books have I read giving divergent opinions ? Where have I traveled and what have I seen ? How many books have I written ? What documentary film companies have I worked with ? Where did I go when I was in the army, who did I meet and who did I talk to ? Who am I discussing this thread with now ? What are my qualifications to discuss this topic ?

I have no idea. Why don't you tell me?

Quote:
Are you assuming I havent ?

I'm not assuming anything. I thought it was interesting and thought that maybe other people might find it interesting. If you tell me you have - I believe you have.
I hadn't in a long time. It was a good review for me, if nothing else.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 06:44 am
@aidan,
Through the US early days to the Civil War , we had several laws, ordinances , proposals and Resolutions (besides the several that have already been discussed in this thread). Tese include
The Northwest Ordinance -that defined the Ohio River as the boundary above which (latitudinally) slavery would NOT be allowed

The Missouri Compromise of 1820-This prohibited slavery in former Louisiana Territory lands above latitude 36 , 30'.

Wilmot PRoviso-which offered to define where slavery would and would no be allowed in lands captured during the Mexican AMerican War--The proviso didnt pass.

In fact, of all the resolutions that were expressly NOT about slavery were the Ky/Va REsolution (even though certain terms within were clearly "code words" for slavery, and the TArriff of 1828 and the Nullification Crisis of 1821 (Although, the bases for most of these were a popular belief in the continuation of slavery as a right in the states where slavery was a part of the ag industry, arms industry, coal mining, and large scale farming of food crops
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 03:34 pm
In Sunday's Parade magazine:

"Today, a new battle for history is being waged, with political conservatives casting the Civil War as a struggle against Big Government, with only tangential connections to slavery. These neo-Confederates contend that one can honor the South’s heritage without condoning its institutionalized racism. But as a historian and as a Southerner, I believe that is a losing cause. Without what our seventh vice president, John C. Calhoun, called the South’s “peculiar domestic institution,” there would have been no Civil War. There can be no revision of this inescapable reality.


"Some conservatives in Virginia have said they see the current battles against health-care reform and climate-change laws as “a continuation of the efforts by Jefferson Davis and the other secessionists in the 1860s,” according to the Washington Post. One member of the Virginia Division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans said that Rebels “were fighting for the same things that people in the ‘Tea Party’ are fighting for now.”

This year, as the 2012 presidential campaign gets under way, two powerful forces will intersect: the commemorations of the Civil War and the opposition to President Obama’s policies. As groups in the South reenact historical moments—the Sons of Confederate Veterans in South Carolina has already held a “Secession Ball”—the rhetoric of resistance to Washington will inevitably resonate. While politicians and citizens continue to debate the size and shape of our government, Confederate symbols and the language of “states’ rights” will be in the air.

At such a charged moment, we must remember our nation’s history fully, not selectively. If we truly want to be faithful stewards of the past, Americans need to recall what the war was about: slavery and the definition of human liberty. And the Civil War’s true legacy is not about Big Government or today’s political skirmishing—it’s about a nation’s obligation to live up to the best part of itself. Slavery was an evil, and it had to be defeated.

As we reflect on the war, let us never forget that it was fought to rid us of a monumental prejudice and that we must remain vigilant about confronting inequality in our time. On the war’s eve, Lincoln hoped that we might be touched by the “better angels of our nature.” That’s a prayer worth repeating now, and always."
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 04:02 pm
@panzade,
AAAH, what the hell pan, its only history. It doesnt mean anything. See I can think Australian.
mysteryman
 
  3  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 04:04 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
See I can think Australian


Based only on the Australian you are argueing with about this subject, isnt that a contradiction in terms?
dlowan
 
  0  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 04:23 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

AAAH, what the hell pan, its only history. It doesnt mean anything. See I can think Australian.



Oy!!!!!
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 04:24 pm
@mysteryman,
Ouch. True, but ouch.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 05:54 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
Based only on the Australian you are argueing with about this subject, isnt that a contradiction in terms?
That earns you the coveted but infrequently awarded "FARMERMAN BAADABING PRIZE".

__________________________________________________________
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 05:55 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
Oy!!!!!
Is that a good oy or a 'youre in big trouble oy"?
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 06:13 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
Well, have you lived there? Have you lived in a northern US neighborhood with African-American neighbors and in a southern US neighborhood with African-American neighbors, so that you could make sustained and daily observations and compare the two?
What would be the statistical significance of your anecdotal evidence ?

Quote:
It's an environment that has to be experienced to be understood.
Perhaps...but how typical was your experience ?

Quote:
Places have their ghosts and retain their historical flavors.
Definitely....but I am still not convinced living in a racially mixed poor neighbourhood is different anywhere . I have lived in several, within Oz and overseas . You stand more chance of being robbed if you are rich than if you are poor, regardless of colour .

Quote:
I'm not assuming anything.
My mistake .
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 06:21 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
Oy!!!!!
Is that a good oy or a 'youre in big trouble oy"?



It's a good humoured "you're in big trouble" oy.

Don't tar us all with the same brush!!!
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 06:23 pm
@farmerman,
You cant see the forest for the trees .

Why did Sherman set out to burn the South ? Not to stop slavery but to stop any more secession movements AFTER the war .

Why was no negotiated settlement possible after the war started ? Because the North would never allow the South to secede .

Why did the South never agree to ban slavery ? It wasnt that they hated blacks that much, it was because of the money involved in crops .

Why did the North bend over backwards to allow the slave states into the Federation at Independence ? The power of one country, one continent .

Why didnt the North let the South secede ? It wasn't about the love of the black man it was about preserving the power of the Union .

The South would have given up slavery in the bat of an eye if they didn't need them for money . The north would have continued to allow slavery for the foreseeable future if the South hadn't of seceded . Power and Money...not hippy ideals of equality....were the cause of the USA Civil War .
 

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