51
   

May I see your papers, citizen?

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 08:46 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Its leaders Founded this Republic,
knowing that personal freedom and domestic jurisdiction of government are INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL.


Pretty stupid statement coming from a person who suggests he was once a lawyer. Just a cursory review of US Constitutional history would show that this is pure nonsense, Om type nonsense to be sure, but still nonsense.

The jurisdiction of the federal government has expanded so far beyond what was envisioned by the founders, that they would croak if they got a glimpse of it.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 12:32 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Its leaders Founded this Republic,
knowing that personal freedom and domestic jurisdiction of government are INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL.
JTT wrote:


Pretty stupid statement coming from a person who suggests he was once a lawyer. Just a cursory review of US Constitutional history would show that this is pure nonsense, Om type nonsense to be sure, but still nonsense.
Maybe in the hopeless confusion of your delusions, again.



JTT wrote:
The jurisdiction of the federal government has expanded so far beyond what was envisioned by the founders, that they would croak if they got a glimpse of it.
Oddly, that is correct
and that is what I suggested. U apparently are not able to understand; no surprize. U cannot reason.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.





David
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 01:34 pm
@maxdancona,
You know Max, none immediately spring to mine. I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, but i would have thought something would have popped into mind. Maybe when it happens there isn't the same attention paid as when the resolution requires violence or dramatic shifts in the makeup of a government.

In any case, I'm not trying to argue that the problem can only be resolved by the parties improving their understanding of one another's position, or that it's even possible at all to resolve it in that manner.

I do believe though that if it can be solved in such a manner, accusing the other side of bad faith and evil intent won't do it.

I've acknowledged that apparent hardliners, such as yourself, are not prohibited from attempting your own means of resolution, and that ultimately what appears to at least be a temporary resolution can be affected by you and those taking the same position.

It does give rise to why you or brandon (if it's fair to consider him hardliner too) continue to post on this topic.

You're more than free to use this forum in whatever fashion you would like and I'm not trying to take any sort of shot at you, but I'm curious.

Do you think it's neccesary to counter the argument of the opposing hardline whenever you see it (or maybe you just like to)?

Do you think it advances your hardline position (even in some small way) stating it every chance you get?

Do you use this forum to hone an argument that has greater relevance in a different one?

No judgment value involved. I'm just interested in why people do certain things.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 01:36 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Or left wing populism...right?

Of course you appreciate that a review for constitutionality can be a disguised effort to legislate.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Oct, 2011 10:20 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn, What makes you think I am a hardliner? I am a pragmatist. I accept the system as it is and work within the system to make society better. I am perfectly willing to accept compromise where it is beneficial as long as it really moves society in what I consider a good direction.

I would gladly compromise even with Brandon as long as it really was a move towards a more just, compassionate society. The reason I don't think I would ever compromise with Brandon is because I don't see any where we could compromise. To compromise with someone you need to have overlapping goals, each side needs to get something that they want.

Of course, Brandon isn't the only person there is to compromise with, there are other parts of society that aren't so diametrically opposed to what I consider progress.

Take the Dream Act for example. This is a perfectly reasonable compromise position that provides a path to citizenship for people who were brought here a children and plan to go to college or the military. This is a measure that a solid majority of Americans say they would support.

And I would be happy to bend on border enforcement measures.

I have lots of wiggle room in my convictions. It is Brandon's side that is saying No Amnesty period and then defining any little move to make it easier for undocumented immigrants to become legal as completely unacceptable.

I have beliefs and goals and I will work within the system to use any leverage I have to make our society stronger and more accepting. Part of that is compromise.

That is as long as there is someone to compromise with.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Oct, 2011 10:40 pm
@maxdancona,
Let me give an example Finn. In 1969 there were the Stonewall riots where police were busting in to bars to find and beat and arrest homosexuals. Homosexuals at the time were all considered dangerous and subversive. Most lived in secrecy for fear of losing their jobs or worse.

Look at the progress made in the past 40 years. Not only have they stopped arresting and beating people, now homosexuals are getting married in many states. There are positive portrayals of homosexuals on the television, jobs are protected, and homosexuals are generally safe and accepted in society.

This progress was opposed, and is still opposed, by a core of people who have always strongly opposed homosexuality and still do today. These people have always been unwilling to accept any rights for homosexuals and they made it clear that their minds would never change. And it was true, these people still oppose any rights for homosexuals.

You don't compromise with people who will always oppose you. They are lost causes and it is best to realize this and not even waste any time trying to reason with them.

Rather a successful social movement focuses on the middle where there are people who will be open to reason. The compromise might be moving slowly (same sex marriage was left out of the discussion for a long time) and finding the most obvious changes first (clearly beating people up would be opposed by most people).

The key is to realize where you can make progress and focus on those areas. This take flexibility and a willingness to bend. This doesn't mean giving up ground to people who hate you and want you to fail.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Oct, 2011 10:45 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Of course you appreciate that a review for constitutionality can be a disguised effort to legislate.


Of course, as a loyal and patriotic American you realize that the judicial branch is that part of government that has been reviewing legislation since roughly 1803 to ensure that it meshes with the Constitution.

OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2011 05:09 am
@JTT,

Quote:
Of course you appreciate that a review for constitutionality can be a disguised effort to legislate.
JTT wrote:
Of course, as a loyal and patriotic American you realize that the judicial branch is that part of government that has been reviewing legislation since roughly 1803 to ensure that it meshes with the Constitution.
The judiciary has never been authorized to legislate.

Judges r duty bound to FIND the law (ascertain what it IS) not make the law.





David
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  3  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 10:32 pm
Russell Pearce, the Arizona State Senator from Mesa who sponsored Arizona's SB 1070, was defeated today in a recall election, losing to political newcomer, Republican Jerry Lewis. This is AWESOME!

0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 10:49 pm
Quote:
The Supreme Court wrapped up oral arguments on Arizona's immigration law on Wednesday, and most legal observers are suggesting that the justices appear poised to allow at least some of the measure's more controversial provisions to stand.
The Washington Post reports that the justices "seemed skeptical of the Obama administration's claim that a requirement that police check the immigration status of those arrested or detained was an impermissible intrusion on Congress’s power to set immigration policy and the executive branch’s ability to implement it." CNN offered a similar take, explaining that parts of the sweeping immigration law "received a surprising amount of support" from the court.
A final ruling is not expected until June, but most court watchers were in agreement that the White House most likely won't like the outcome given how the day's action went.

http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/04/25/supreme_court_to_uphold_parts_of_arizona_immigration_law.html

If the Supremes were to strike down Obama's position on States Rights as well as Obama-Care then a huge portion of his first term will have been rubbed out. I dont see how a guy gets this much wrong and still convinces the people that he is fit for a second term.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2012 06:04 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
If the Supremes were to strike down Obama's position on States Rights as well as Obama-Care then a huge portion of his first term will have been rubbed out. I dont see how a guy gets this much wrong and still convinces the people that he is fit for a second term.


Funny thing. This will have the opposite effect you are hoping for. This not only further drives Hispanic Americans into the Obama camp, it makes them damn motivated to vote.

I think there is a similar, if less drastic, effect in the healthcare case. This shows the urgency of a second Obama term.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2012 06:24 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


Even this one?

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/14ktgold/14ktgold0808/14ktgold080800023/3385988-hammer-and-smashed-alarm-clock-on-blue-tablecloth.jpg
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2012 06:43 am
@izzythepush,
Not that one, Izzy.
I hope that u did not sacrifice it for me.





David
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2012 08:29 am
@OmSigDAVID,
I didn't, but someone else may have done it to prove a point.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2012 11:33 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The Supreme Court wrapped up oral arguments on Arizona's immigration law on Wednesday, and most legal observers are suggesting that the justices appear poised to allow at least some of the measure's more controversial provisions to stand.
The Washington Post reports that the justices "seemed skeptical of the Obama administration's claim that a requirement that police check the immigration status of those arrested or detained was an impermissible intrusion on Congress’s power to set immigration policy and the executive branch’s ability to implement it." CNN offered a similar take, explaining that parts of the sweeping immigration law "received a surprising amount of support" from the court.
A final ruling is not expected until June, but most court watchers were in agreement that the White House most likely won't like the outcome given how the day's action went.

http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/04/25/supreme_court_to_uphold_parts_of_arizona_immigration_law.html

hawkeye10 wrote:
If the Supremes were to strike down Obama's position on States Rights as well as Obama-Care
then a huge portion of his first term will have been rubbed out.
He did not care much about the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2012 11:13 pm
Quote:
Federal Judge Refuses to Stop Florida Voter Purge

(CBS/AP) TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - A federal judge has refused to stop Florida from removing potentially non-U.S. citizens from its voter rolls.

The U.S. Department of Justice sued the state to halt the purge, arguing it was going on too close to a federal election.

U.S. District Judge Robert Hinkle said Wednesday that there was nothing in federal voting laws that prevent the state from identifying non-U.S. citizens even if it comes less than 90 days before the Aug. 14 election.

Hinkle ruled that federal laws are designed to block states from removing eligible voters close to an election. He said they are not designed to stop states from blocking voters who should have never been allowed to cast ballots in the first place.....

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57462408/federal-judge-refuses-to-stop-florida-voter-purge/?tag=stack


So the Obama federal government secretly hopes that illegals will be able to vote. Just great.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2012 11:26 pm
@Brandon9000,

Quote:
Federal Judge Refuses to Stop Florida Voter Purge

(CBS/AP) TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - A federal judge has refused to stop Florida from removing potentially non-U.S. citizens from its voter rolls.

The U.S. Department of Justice sued the state to halt the purge, arguing it was going on too close to a federal election.

U.S. District Judge Robert Hinkle said Wednesday that there was nothing in federal voting laws that prevent the state from identifying non-U.S. citizens even if it comes less than 90 days before the Aug. 14 election.

Hinkle ruled that federal laws are designed to block states from removing eligible voters close to an election. He said they are not designed to stop states from blocking voters who should have never been allowed to cast ballots in the first place.....

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57462408/federal-judge-refuses-to-stop-florida-voter-purge/?tag=stack
Brandon9000 wrote:
So the Obama federal government secretly hopes that illegals will be able to vote. Just great.
Well, if ILLEGAL ALIENS r not allowed to vote,
then will obama even be able to vote for himself??????





David
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2012 11:45 pm
I really would rather not have this case entangled with birther crap. This is a simple case of the Obama administration revealing its desire that illegals will be able to vote.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2012 11:49 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
I really would rather not have this case entangled with birther crap.
This is a simple case of the Obama administration revealing its desire that illegals will be able to vote.
The situation IS whatever it IS,
regardless of what u'd rather,
and everyone is perfectly free to speak his mind openly.





David
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2012 06:15 am
@Brandon9000,
No, the voter purge was clearly removing people that ARE US citizens from the rolls. That IS illegal to do under the voting rights act.
 

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