51
   

May I see your papers, citizen?

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2011 01:30 pm
@maxdancona,
Different from what?

It's certainly different from the "Should Brits continue to support the Royals with their tax dollars? issue or the "ethanol subsidy" issue, but you don't see elements of extremism in the "abortion" issue, the "climate change" issue or the "entitlement reform" issue?

For good or bad, people are not as passionate about marijuana usage as they are illegal immigration, and they're not as passionate about pot smoking, speeding or downloading bootleg movies as they are about abortion, climate change, entitlement reform or gun laws.

Obviously this doesn't mean that the more passion a problem generates, the greater the justification for solutions that are extreme in nature. On another thread we have been discussing the evils of Puppy Mills and how the strong passion stirred up by animal suffering leads some people to endorsing extreme solutions, like banning all pet breeding.

I understand why people who are frustrated by the seeming inability of society to solve chronic problems are attracted to extreme solutions, but while I will most often argue against such solutions I'm not going to assume that the people who propose them are hateful or even uncaring.

I don't think people who favor the prohibition of all dog breeding hate people who own pets, and I don't think that people who favor strict immigration laws hate foreigners in general or Mexicans in particular.

To the extent that extremes of any sort often present great difficulties, extreme reactions in opposition to what are perceived to be extreme solutions are rarely productive.

If I catch my son visiting pornographic websites and issue an edict that he is not to ever use a computer until he reaches 18, the difficulties my solution may cause will not be smoothly resolved by my wife screaming in my face that I am insanely overreacting and never loved my son anyway.

Nor will there be any hope of resolving the problem if my wife insists that I must rescind less extreme measures I have imposed (like using content blocking software or requiring my son to give us his password) simply because the main one may be too radical.

Desperate times may lead to desperate measure but to the extent that there is validity to this old saying it is because it implies that all less extreme solutions have been attempted and failed, and that the consequences of the problem cannot be forestalled any longer.

It is also wise when engaged in conflict resolution to offer alternative solutions, and not simply dismiss the thesis that a problem exists.

Monoculturalism is a word that can be used in a lot of different ways and whether it represents something positive or negative is dependent upon context. It helps to provide an explanation of how you are using the term when you use it so broadly:

Quote:
Monoculturalism has always been a big part of the immigration debate


I suppose one can use any term in what manner one chooses, but it helps if everyone has a rough agreement of what the concept can mean.

You seem to define it as a way of thought which considers even slight differences as a "threat." I might use "Paranoia" to label such a way of thinking, but not "Monoculturalism."

It's true that people are hard wired to find differences noticeable if not slightly discomforting, but it’s a huge leap to "fear" and "threat." The more stressful the environment, the more quickly noticable and discomforting are likely to elevate to fear and threat, but it is not the normal reaction for most people, let alone most Americans to immediately perceive difference as danger.

A random selection of on-line columns is hardly a scientific study and even assuming it factual, that virtually every article relating to Hispanics attracts at least one comment that can be perceived as bigoted, we can't draw from it reasonable and meaningful conclusions about

1) Monoculturalism
2) Whether Americans have a narrow or broad perspective of what it means to be "an American"
3) What that perspective might be
4) What the pervasive "American" attitude towards Hispanics may be
5) Whether or not Americans agree that illegal immigration is a problem
6) And if it is a problem, what the most effective solutions might be

My bet is that you can randomly select on-line columns or articles on a variety of topics (including abortion, gun-control, climate-change, entitlement reform, Sarah Palin, capitalism etc etc etc) and you will find a similar frequency of ignorant and/or offensive comments that you would be far less inclined to believe represents a perspective common to any group with which you would be comfortable identifying.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 06:24 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

It's certainly different from the "Should Brits continue to support the Royals with their tax dollars?


We don't have dollars over here matey-boy. It's not the 51st State.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 07:23 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

We don't have dollars over here matey-boy. It's not the 51st State.
Now you've robbed him of all his illusions. Wink
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 08:49 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I do feel a bit mean now.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 11:12 am
@izzythepush,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
It's certainly different from the "Should Brits continue to support the Royals with their tax dollars?
izzythepush wrote:
We don't have dollars over here matey-boy. It's not the 51st State.
U have pounds of sterling silver, right??





David
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 11:44 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Pounds sterling, not silver. Silver sterling is something else.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 12:20 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
I have a perfect right to desire that there not be so many people in the country illegally from a single location that my culture is alterred to include, in essence, another country within our borders.


Any time I visit one of the pueblos, at least a few are complaining like you are, Brandon.
But somehow, you'll have to get used to it.

Every country in the world claims the right to control immigration. America has the same right. So many people in America agree with me that several states have passed immigration enforcement acts by wide margins of the vote, but then the liberals find a court to pretend that the laws violate the Constitution, thus nullifying the wishes of millions about what happens in their own country. Contrary to your statement, I do actually have the right to some say concerning what happens to me, and many, many, many Americans agree with me. Now, if only they could be permitted to vote laws in.
RABEL222
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 03:20 pm
@Brandon9000,
I guess we could scrap the Supreme court and the constitution. Would that make you happier?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 03:37 pm
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
Furthermore, I have a perfect right to desire that there not be so many people in the country illegally from a single location that my culture is alterred to include, in essence, another country within our borders.


Ahhhhhh, just keep 'em talking and racism is bound to rear its ugly head.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 03:40 pm
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
Bigotry is saying that members of one group are worse, or better, or less desirable than members of another group. ... and we have the right to prevent so many people entering from a single country that we have in effect a foreign country within our borders.


I guess that you don't have to keep Brandon talking much at all for his ugly bigotry to percolate to the surface.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 03:55 pm
@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:
Any time I visit one of the pueblos, at least a few are complaining like you are, Brandon.
But somehow, you'll have to get used to it.


Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Nice one, Walter.

0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 04:50 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

It's certainly different from the "Should Brits continue to support the Royals with their tax dollars?


We don't have dollars over here matey-boy. It's not the 51st State.


They'll be dinars and dirhams before too long.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 05:59 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
That's not even a joke is it? You actually believe that bollocks. Fox 'News' is rotting your brain.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Oct, 2011 12:07 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I'd thought,they fear, the Euro would come?

But at least, it would be the malapropism of a German coin's name ...
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Oct, 2011 01:48 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


But it is the level of hatred that far exceeds the legal issue that I find troubling.


I agree, mostly. Sometimes you have to wonder what kind of hate and fear are lurking behind the well reasoned arguments. And sometimes, you find out. That doesn't mean there are not good arguments against illegal immigration.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Oct, 2011 01:57 am
@roger,
Quote:
I agree, mostly. Sometimes you have to wonder what kind of hate and fear are lurking behind the well reasoned arguments
The American dream is dying....some people firmly believe that failure to control the borders is a big part of the problem, and some others just want to have someone to blame and immigrants and criminals are always easy targets for that blame (we get a twofer with illegal aliens)

Quote:
That doesn't mean there are not good arguments against illegal immigration.
there are always good arguments against turning a blind eye to criminality...when the government refuses to enforce its own laws there is a whole new kettle of fish because now we need to wonder what other of its duties has it decided to not do....without citizen approval.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Oct, 2011 07:32 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I'd thought,they fear, the Euro would come?

But at least, it would be the malapropism of a German coin's name ...


Gosh Walter, you're so cemented within mid-century political tropes.

Muslims, not Nazis are the boogymen of the 21st Century.

And did you really think Brits couldn't get "pfenning" and "mark" straight?

The Reich is over Walt, time to move on.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Oct, 2011 11:57 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Well, the Taler is okay for me. Wink
0 Replies
 
laughoutlood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Oct, 2011 12:39 am
@DrewDad,
May I see your papers, citizen?

Certainly sir, is there mayhem about?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Oct, 2011 01:43 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Muslims, not Nazis are the boogymen of the 21st Century.


Bollocks, far right demagogues like Bush who want to start a 'crusade' and holy war are the real problem.
 

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