May I see your papers, citizen?

@OCCOM BILL,

My very strong opinion at the time suggested to me that my color and that of the inspector in question did indeed have a great to do with it. That was also the conclusion of the administrative court that reviewed the case.

Statistical inferences of the type you suggest are often very misleading. Is the different proportion of black men in prision a proof or result of discrimination in law enforcement, or is it a consequence of their greater relative involvement in crime? The statistical case for the latter interpretation is very strong.

2 Replies

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

My very strong opinion at the time suggested to me that my color and that of the inspector in question did indeed have a great to do with it. That was also the conclusion of the administrative court that reviewed the case.

I missed part of the equation the first time around; but we're still talking about a relative rarity compared to the millions of disproportionate Terry Stops that will be performed this year.

georgeob1 wrote:

Statistical inferences of the type you suggest are often very misleading. Is the different proportion of black men in prision a proof or result of discrimination in law enforcement, or is it a consequence of their greater relative involvement in crime? The statistical case for the latter interpretation is very strong.

It's both, and intelligent men like us have to admit the simple truth when we encounter it. An uncertain percentage of all races are driving with drugs in their vehicles, and if they're not facing identical chances of being randomly checked; the outcome will inevitably be skewed… even if it is just exasperating a statistical discrepancy that already exists.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

My very strong opinion at the time suggested to me that my color and that of the inspector in question did indeed have a great to do with it. That was also the conclusion of the administrative court that reviewed the case.
I missed part of the equation the first time around; but we're still talking about a relative rarity compared to the millions of disproportionate Terry Stops that will be performed this year.

Perhaps so. However, the consequences and cost were far greater than the inconvenience of a few minutes stop to establish identity.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Perhaps so. However, the consequences and cost were far greater than the inconvenience of a few minutes stop to establish identity.

Even if that was equal, two disconnected wrongs don't make a right.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

Then I will agree that the Arizona law should be reversed if you will agree that equal opportunity programs should be abolished. Both lend themselves to the possibility of abuse.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

You still haven't pointed out how the premise of the thread if flawed. You continue to point out that certain residents are required to carry identification, which is not something about which I'm complaining, and that certain federal officials are entitled to check up on my residency status, which is also not something about which I'm complaining.

Perhaps you believe that the police will magically be able to determine residency status on sight, and that U.S. citizens will never be investigated under this law. I don't share your optimism.

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@Thomas,

If you read my post you will see that I said no such thing. I was equating the arizona law with driveing laws. As I read the law they check your idenity if they catch you breaking a law. You know like speeding. I know several cops and the majority of them just do thier job.

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@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

Some Latino police officers are strongly opposed to the law. Given that the great majority of Hispanic Americans in Arizona are strongly opposed to the law this is not surprising.

I don't doubt they are, but I doubt even more that this will lead them to abuse the law.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

I don't doubt they are, but I doubt even more that this will lead them to abuse the law.

I don't think the law will ever come into effect... the lawsuits will take care of it before the boycotts do. The main effect of this law will be to energize minority communities for generations to come at the expense of Republicans and conservatives.

That being said-- minorities, including African-Americans, Middle Easterners and Hispanics alike are already resentful about police abuses even without this law. This is part of the reason you see such a strong reaction against this law from minority communities.

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

Hey, you folks on the right constantly paint Mexicans as drug dealers . . . in fact . . . the impetus for this law was to control illegal drugs. That an American in Texas is at least one of the enormously powerful druglords behind the distribution of heroin in this country IS COMPLETELY RELEVANT TO THE AZ LAW.

It isn't relevant to whether America, or any subset thereof, has the right to have immigration laws, and to enforce them, as most other governments do.

1 Reply

@engineer,

engineer wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

People may only be questioned during a different, valid investigation.

But police can have "valid" investigations almost at will. It's basically your word against the police on a traffic stop. As long as the police say they were stopping you in good faith the investigation is valid. I think the majority of Arizona police are good folk, but this is completely open to abuse if someone is looking for an excuse to harass US citizens with brown skin and with the penalties that accrue to local law enforcement if it appears they aren't enforcing the law, there is a strong incentive for otherwise decent policemen to pursue brown skin folk as well.

A policeman who wants to break the law can just walk up and kill you or do anything else, I suppose, but the law, as actually written, prohibits asking people for papers unless it is in the course of a different legal matter.

America has a perfect right to have immigration laws and to enforce them, as most countries do, and doubly so since the number of people living in the country illegally is now twelve million, which constitutes a crisis. There simply is no way to rectify the problem but to actually investigate whether individuals should be here or not. If you disagree, tell me how we can find and deport the people who snuck in illegally without investigation.

1 Reply

@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

Quote:

I don't doubt they are, but I doubt even more that this will lead them to abuse the law.

I don't think the law will ever come into effect... the lawsuits will take care of it before the boycotts do. The main effect of this law will be to energize minority communities for generations to come at the expense of Republicans and conservatives.

That being said-- minorities, including African-Americans, Middle Easterners and Hispanics alike are already resentful about police abuses even without this law. This is part of the reason you see such a strong reaction against this law from minority communities.

You have a gift for overestimation.

0 Replies

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

No, your response was completely off topic for the conversation we were having. You have successfully derailed the conversation, though, so good for you.

FWIW, we'd covered the "point" you made already, which was nothing more than some petulant whine on your part.

No, it wasn't off topic. It was on topic. You merely refuse to actually debate the topic, which doesn't surprise me a bit. Your only conversations seem to be about posters, not what they say or the underlying subject. You said that the illegals constitute a big part of the work force, and I said that that didn't give them the right to be here. Respond to what I said or admit that you are unable to.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Furthermore, when the person's other identification is examined, such as driver's licenses or other items that supply a name, it may be possible to check with some database and determine that the individual wasn't born here and wasn't naturalized as a citizen, or that his story about his birth is phoney.

Although it's true that the police can determine my immigration status by running my driver's license, I don't expect the Arizona law to work that way. The original version of Senate Bill 1070 instructed police to check your driver's license first, and to just assume you're in the country legally if you present one. I admit, though, that this clause is not in the version the Senate passed into law.

Brandon9000 wrote:
Even if examining the person's ID is of no value, it isn't improper to ask for it.

I would have said that since we're expected to pay taxes for police work, it would be improper for that work to be of value. But fine---if the distinction between "improper" and "worthless" is important to you, I'll settle for "worthless".

Better to at least try to deal with the crisis than to do nothing.

0 Replies

@engineer,

engineer wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

The opening premise of this thread is itself flawed.

As the title of the thread mentions, this is about citizens being harassed and asked to show papers (at least that is how I see it.) The entire burden of this new law is felt only by a minority part of the population. If all citizens bear the same burden, no problem. Of course the population will howl when caucasian grandmas who forgot their licenses are hauled to jail on suspected immigration violations, but if the citizens of Arizona want it, I guess I'm ok with that. I'm not ok with police going after brown US citizens while letting white or black ones pass.

What part of the world are most of the millions of illegals in America from?

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

So it's okay for a 3rd generation Mexican American to get profiled because there are a large number of illegal Mexican immigrants?

A
R
T

1 Reply

@failures art,

failures art wrote:

So it's okay for a 3rd generation Mexican American to get profiled because there are a large number of illegal Mexican immigrants?

A
R
T

Profiling is a vague term, so let me be more specific. The police should never ever ask an individual for identification unless it is pursuant to a different investigation, and all persons checked should be absolutely presumed innocent and treated with respect and courtesy until evidence emerges that they are guilty of something. However, that being said, if almost all of the illegal immigrants were from Italy, I would expect the police to be more suspicious of people with Italian accents. It's simple logic to go with the statistics. As I said, all people questioned should be treated as innocent until evidence emerges that they are not.

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

So you're considered innocent of being illegal until you're suspicious, and being Hispanic makes you suspicious...

Got it. That's not "profiling" at all! Can we get the GOP meme machine to pump out a friendly sounding phrase for this?

A
R
T

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@Brandon9000,

No, I just refuse to debate the topic, again, with you. This is your typical MO: Arrive late to a thread, spout some talking point that's already been discussed ages ago, and then declare victory because nobody wants to rehash it with you.

Brandon9000 wrote:

You said that the illegals constitute a big part of the work force,

Are you saying that illegal aliens don't constitute a big part of the work force?

Brandon9000 wrote:

and I said that that didn't give them the right to be here.

Have I stated that illegal aliens do have a right to be here?

These are not mutually exclusive, and Thomas and I have already discussed at length how the situation benefits employers.

0 Replies

@mysteryman,

I am sorry that your vocabulary is so limited.

1 Reply

May I see your papers, citizen?

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