May I see your papers, citizen?

@dyslexia,

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I'm burning my copy of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix!

Solidarity!

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@dyslexia,

They should have gone with "Long Island Iced Tea".

1 Reply

@mm25075,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

It WOUD, for sure. If the Arizona National Guard put some snipers to guard the fence
at opportune, much used points of entry, intrusion woud end immediately.

mm25075 wrote:

Actually there are groups of armed citizens who actively look for people crossing already.

Yeah, but thay are not snipers. The Mexicans woud not jump the fence under sniper fire.

(Altho, fleeing citizens of East Berlin DID
jump the Berlin Wall under fire from communist automatic weapons, in quest of freedom.)

David

0 Replies

@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

They should have gone with "Long Island Iced Tea".

From what I 've heard, that 's the next thing to pure alcohol. I 've never tried it. I don 't like tea.

David

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I am a bit surprised by the lack of sympathy for the people in AZ. Due to the illegals influx, crime is skyrocketing and citizens are losing jobs.

It is questionable, I think, whether the legislation is unconstitutional.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

That's the whole point of a boycott - cause the State and the people there enough pain to make them change their minds about their elected leadership.

Okay, let me summarize: The alleged problem is wholesale discrimination against workers for looking like Mexicans. And the alleged solution is wholesale discrimination against business owners for living in Arizona.

How is that progress?

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
That's the whole point of a boycott - cause the State and the people there enough pain to make them change their minds about their elected leadership.

Okay, let me summarize: The alleged problem is wholesale discrimination against workers for looking like Mexicans. And the alleged solution is wholesale discrimination against business owners for living in Arizona.

How is that progress?

It's hard to say that personal buying decisions are ones which are subject to any sort of moral regulation. If I don't want to buy goods from a certain place or manufacturer, I'm not acting in any fashion which is unduly discriminatory or harmful towards anyone.

The problem in AZ isn't private discrimination, but PUBLIC discrimination by the State and legal officers of it. The goal isn't to end all discrimination, but to end institutionalized discrimination.

It is unfortunate that boycotts do hurt people who have done nothing wrong; but that's inevitable. If I don't want to buy Nestle products, due to their bad labor practices, this ultimately hurts Carol in accounting, even though she never personally did anything bad to anyone. But that's not a strong enough reason to not boycott a bad company.

It also places immense pressure upon business owners to force their state to conform to the standards the rest of the country enjoy. If you sell home Spas, and you can't sell any because AZ laws piss so many people off that your inter-state business falls off, you will be either tempted to get those laws changed or relocate. Either has the desired effect upon the State over time.

Cycloptichorn

3 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Business already has too much power to change government. Between the paid for congress congress and courts. I dont think we should count on business to do anything except make sure they make money.

1 Reply

@rabel22,

rabel22 wrote:

Business already has too much power to change government. Between the paid for congress congress and courts. I dont think we should count on business to do anything except make sure they make money.

Oh, I agree. So the only lever to use against them is to harm their money stream. Thus the boycott.

Cycloptichorn

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@Thomas,

Quote:

Okay, let me summarize: The alleged problem is wholesale discrimination against workers for looking like Mexicans. And the alleged solution is wholesale discrimination against business owners for living in Arizona.

How is that progress?

It seems like a balanced response.

In politics, when there is an injustice, you use whatever leverage you have. Boycotts have long been a tool of social justice movements. In this case, a boycott could be effective because Arizona businesses have a good deal of influence on the legislators who have the power to repeal this law.

Thomas, did you make a similar argument against the divestment movement to end Apartheid in South Africa?

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

It's hard to say that personal buying decisions are ones which are subject to any sort of moral regulation.

By this logic, you shouldn't have a moral problem with the Nazi's 1933 boycott of Jewish stores. Are you sure you don't?

Cycloptichorn wrote:

It is unfortunate that boycotts do hurt people who have done nothing wrong; but that's inevitable.

If I remember correctly, you weren't impressed when Donald Rumsfeld made similar points about collateral damage in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sorry, Cyclo. You were right about Rumsfeld, and now your position on Arizona is hypocritical and bigoted.

2 Replies

@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

It seems like a balanced response.

Only if you believe that two wrongs make a right. And they don't.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
It's hard to say that personal buying decisions are ones which are subject to any sort of moral regulation.

By this logic, you shouldn't have a moral problem with the Nazi's boycott of Jewish stores. Are you sure you don't?

Once again, you are talking about institutionalized discrimination - state-sponsored discrimination. That's not the same thing as personal discrimination.

I don't have a problem with individual people engaging in boycotts of businesses for whatever reasons they choose. It simply isn't the same thing as a State-organized discriminatory policy.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Geez I'm sick of everything being reduced to Nazi's.
As a tourist, I won't go to Arizona. What happens when they ask me for my papers? Now I'm a Nazi...

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Once again, you are talking about institutionalized discrimination - state-sponsored discrimination. That's not the same thing as personal discrimination.

So you would be fine if the Nazis had run the boycott as private citizens, say in 1932.

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@Ceili,

I am sick of the slant on TV "news". I did not watch tv for a few years, just recently started to turn it on......I never believed the liberal bias of media argument, but when I watch all of these blowhards talk about how the Arizona law is evil and the majority of citizens supporting it means that the majority is "misinformed" I really start to wonder.

The media elite seem to be as out of touch with the people as our federal leaders are. This aint good.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Once again, you are talking about institutionalized discrimination - state-sponsored discrimination. That's not the same thing as personal discrimination.

So you would be fine if the Nazis had run the boycott as private citizens, say in 1932.

It's not really a question of what I'm 'fine' with - private citizens have the right to engage in purchasing behaviors for entirely their own reasons, as I'm sure you agree.

Many Mormons, for example, will not do business with non-Mormons - period. I have friends who live in Salt Lake City who say that it is incredibly insular and difficult to get established if you are a non-Mormon business owner. I don't personally support such decisions, but they are perfectly within their rights to make them for whatever reasons they choose.

Cycloptichorn

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@hawkeye10,

yes of course, for the real skinny I get my facts from Joe Arpaio and Tom Tancredo.

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Geez I'm sick of everything being reduced to Nazi's.

If you have read my posts over the last 10 years, you know that I'm not in a habit of reducing everything to the Nazis. But they do offer an obvious test case for certain general propositions. One of those propositions is: "Personal buying decisions are not subject to moral regulation." I'm sorry, but personal buying boycotts against Jews are immoral. And so are personal boycotts against Arizonans.

Ceili wrote:

As a tourist, I won't go to Arizona. What happens when they ask me for my papers? Now I'm a Nazi...

No, because the risk of being intimidated by police is a good reason for you to evade it. But if you stop buying products you would otherwise by simply because they're from Arizona, that does make you, well, not a Nazi, but certainly a bigot.

1 Reply

May I see your papers, citizen?

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