51
   

May I see your papers, citizen?

 
 
engineer
 
  6  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 04:32 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

The Germans are not intruding into America; the MEXICANS are!

So you really don't care about illegal immigrants, only Mexican illegal immigrants?
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 04:33 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Will the Governor subvert America's immigration laws
and be complicit, after the fact, in violation of America's borders ??

The governor is concerned (with good reason) that citizens of his state and country will be harassed in Arizona.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 04:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
How about we leave border security where it is, so that is costs $2-4K to get smuggled in and a few people die in the process....as this keeps some mexicans at home.....Then work hard to deprive those already here of money and services. Then Give the mexicans a few years to get their asses back home, and the ones that want to be here badly enough to stick around, and who are industrious enough to make a go of it, a way to gain legal status? We will then take a fine, make them learn english, have them pass a citizenship test, and then they will be good to go.

Does this work for you?


Yeah--it's like the Grand National. The winners get feted.

Darwin rules.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 04:55 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Dave love-- when you picked out "brawling and robbing" it became obvious you are not a serious participant in a debate on a matter as sensitive as this one is.

You were bleating like a Girl Guide lost in a snowstorm.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 05:09 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Arizona's new law is not federal law, and immigration, as I understand it, comes under federal law. Various law enforcement districts in Arizona are not happy to have the apparent new job of interdiction, or whatever you call it. They are more interested in combatting crime.

As proposed, it is likely I'd be stopped except that I have pale skin, what with my car missing two plastic covers for my side head and brake lights. (Actually that's not all that likely, as the police have other stuff to do. But, potentially possible that I would be stopped and have to fork up my, um, papers.

I saved a link earlier today by Steve Lopez of the LA Times, of interest because it gives an old time Phoenix cop's perspective on this.
http://www.latimes.com/search/dispatcher.front?Query=A+calm+voice+on+arizona%27s+immigration+law&target=article&sortby=display_time+descending




Personally I think there are a few things going on. 1) Reasonable fear of drug cartels (and I'll add, they got that way because there is wealth to be had for various reasons including drug war culture) that are not our own home grown groups, with which we are so familiar - and (2) fractionally reasonable fear of massive immigration all at once, which would be a burden on our miserable infrastructure - and (3), berserko prejudice about people who were, to some extent, at least in ancestry, here first, or, second. The new folk somewhere way beyond third.

I think #3 has too much play in what is going on (and I'm not alone).

ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 05:21 pm
Since some folks including me sometimes don't like to be tasked to look up links, I'll just copy Steve Lopez' column. I rarely do that both not to bludgeon with large amounts of type but also to not just quote a guy's writing effort.

latimes.com/news/local/immigration/la-me-0502-lopezcolumn-20100502,0,2732982.column

A calm voice on Arizona's immigration law

A retired Phoenix police officer, born in Mexico, sees a complex issue with no simple answers.


Steve Lopez
May 2, 2010


As usual when the topic is immigration, there's lots of heat out there and very little light.

The anti-illegal immigration law in Arizona has been called Nazi-like by Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahony and condemned by Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, but it's been hailed by others around the country as a triumphant breakthrough. So, readers are asking me, which side am I on?

I'm on the side of a federal reform bill that controls the border, provides legal crossings when employers need help and recognizes that it would be cheaper and better for society to have current illegals come clean and pay fines than to round up and deport them.

But mostly I'm on the side of Manny Davila, a recently retired Phoenix cop I met 11 years ago when I wrote about a fellow officer of his who was killed by illegal immigrants during a drug bust. The killing sparked a nasty backlash against immigrants in Arizona, and Davila, who was born in Mexico, had a unique perspective. That's why I wanted to check with him Friday to ask what he made of his state's being once again at the center of the nation's never-ending immigration debate.

"I can see both sides of the issue," Davila said. "But it's a very complex problem and because it's complex, so many people fail to look beyond that statement, ‘What part of illegal don't you understand?' "

Davila, 60, is no supporter of illegal immigration, but he understands the economic despair that drives families north.

His father, a laborer, moved back and forth across the border in search of work as a young man, both legally and illegally, until finally taking up legal residence in Arizona. Davila recalls being ridiculed in school for not being fluent in English, and he remembers his mother telling him to toughen up because education was his best shot.

When I met Davila in 1999, he had two kids in college and was about to complete work on a master's degree himself, something he'd worked on at night as he rose through the ranks of the Phoenix Police Department. As a cop, he worked hard, in a tough neighborhood, to get Latinos to trust the mostly white police force and to get police to understand and work with the community.

Then, came the spring day in 1999 when it seemed that all the progress Davila had overseen might come unraveled.

On the evening of March 26, Officer Marc Atkinson, the father of a 7-month old son, gave chase to suspects in his police car, only to have them stop, pull weapons and shoot him dead.

Civilian witnesses tracked down two fleeing suspects. A third suspect was shot and detained by a security guard who was on his way to work when he came upon the scene.

All three suspects were illegal immigrants, and there was $7,000 worth of cocaine in the glove box of their car and a shotgun in the trunk.

"You had people calling the radio talk shows to take their shots," Davila told me back then. "It started with illegal aliens, and then it was, ‘Let's send all the Mexicans back.' "

His officers were on edge too, and Davila " immigrant, cop, peacemaker " found himself trying to keep the neighborhood from blowing.

"I told people that it's not whites or Hispanics who killed Marc," he said back then. "It's drug-dealing cop killers. The issue isn't ethnicity " it's crime and drugs."

And soon, more moderate voices in the community began to echo those sentiments. When disparate groups came together for a march and vigil in support of the police and in honor of Atkinson, the slain officer's wife was thanked, both in English and Spanish.

As a side note, the civilian security guard who shot one of the suspects was an Irish American named Rory Vertigan. He told me he was uncomfortable with the praise heaped on him by the anti-immigrant crowd. His girlfriend was Latina, and on the night of the vigil for Atkinson, he parked a block away and quietly watched the candlelight procession, alone with his thoughts.

Davila, meanwhile, retired in February after 35 years on the force.

"I'm amazed " I guess I shouldn't be " that 70% of the people support this law, according to polls," he said.

If running out illegal immigrants saves a cop's life, he said, that would be wonderful. But he worries that this law will distract officers from their real mission: preventing crime and catching criminals.

"What are they going to do, give officers a color chart to see how brown a person is, and if they're too brown, they must be an illegal?" Davila asked.

He shares the LAPD's official position, and that of many Arizona police departments, that immigration matters are better left to the feds.

"One thing we worked on year in and year out was to get the trust and confidence of people who are undocumented, because as witnesses and as victims, we need to talk to them," Davila said. "We can't do that if they fear being deported."

I asked Davila what he planned to do in retirement.

Volunteer, he said. At two social service agencies that help immigrants try to become productive citizens.

Well, he can forget a career in Arizona politics.

[email protected]

Copyright © 2010, The Los Angeles Times



0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 05:23 pm
@engineer,
So, that is the reason for mailing a license rather than giving it to an applicant on the spot? I just looked at it from the practical standpoint and the money spent on postage.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 05:23 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
Various law enforcement districts in Arizona are not happy to have the apparent new job of interdiction, or whatever you call it. They are more interested in combatting crime.


That's welcome news osso. I've never heard of anything like that before. Mainstream thinking on the nature of bureaucracies say quite the opposite. Expanding operations is always a good thing for a bureaucracy no matter how much it squeals about it.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 05:24 pm
@plainoldme,
That's the way I've experienced it in California and New Mexico for years.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 05:26 pm
The NPR interview with Kavanaugh ought to be available now. Kavanaugh went into the conflict between federal and state law and said the AZ bill supports federal law.

I hate to bring up a tired issue . . . but . . . doesn't it seem that the problem with the drug cartels could be solved?

While the drug problem is very real, blaming it on illegal immigrants makes no sense. There are probably native born Americans as well as naturalized citizens involved in drug importation.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 06:13 pm
@spendius,
Well, that is from articles I've read re those who are not.
Joe Arpaio, different story. Not that I've read about him in a while.

The drug cartels are wreaking major havoc in many places, far as I read, south of the border, and their methods are astoundingly brutal, again, via what I read. How they all came to be is, I think, a complex story. Like any gang situation, I don't just assume all involved in that culture are somehow evil by definition. The police - I am not from Mexico and I don't know. But some appear to be routinely corrupt, as in that's the way of the world, and some majorly so. I'll not say it's all that way.

A recent home town of mine was in Humboldt County, where I lived for six years. The area is well regarded and reviled for marijuana growth. I remember a radio station blasting music and then announcing where the helicopters were, as I drove through the forest. I happen not to be a stoner, but I don't mind if other people are and if they grow a bit of this and that. So I was bemused. And Humboldt County seemed to me to have been industrious place but relaxed (naturally). Only thing I worried about when I lived there was meth, another story.

A few years ago, the med marijuana thing started, and some quite intricate production developed. (I know all this by a certain new yorker article, which I posted on a2k at the time I read it.)

I catch that area news about once a week because I'm still interested in what is happening in those cities - but in the meantime see some articles about cartels showing up. This is a visual, the stoners and cartels. I have no idea, but have imagination. I'm not the one to write the screenplay.

Oh, but wait, I can claim the treatment.

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 06:20 pm
@engineer,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
The Germans are not intruding into America; the MEXICANS are!
engineer wrote:
So you really don't care about illegal immigrants, only Mexican illegal immigrants?
The problem comes from MEXICO, not Germany.

Its like when the Fire Dept. responds to an emergency,
it squirts its water on THE FIRE, not on places where there is no fire and its cold. Got the idea???





David
roger
 
  3  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 06:23 pm
@engineer,
Maybe our Hispanic governor is afraid he will be stopped.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 06:24 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Dave love-- when you picked out "brawling and robbing" it became obvious you are not a serious participant in a debate on a matter as sensitive as this one is.

You were bleating like a Girl Guide lost in a snowstorm.
Spendius, go stick your head in the toilet
and find out how sensitive that is; be sure to report back.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 06:28 pm
@dyslexia,
Quote:
help New Mexicans
dyslexia wrote:
New Mexicans are american citizens.
That depends on how u define
the "New Mexicans", Dys.

That 's a little vague; it might mean citizens or it might mean just residents.





David
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 06:31 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
So, you are inflamed at Mexico because of the cartels, or you don't know about them and simply don't want any non papered immigrants ever?

My father's family, per the story, came over on a raft. That is what my father described for my fifth grade essay. I doubted that when I grew up, but it seems some did come over on rafts. (Set will tell me if I'm right or wrong, but I was jolted when I saw that, that they were just telling.) As it happened in later years, my father and my uncle were good at sea.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 06:38 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
DON'T even start with lecturing Dys about New Mexico, stupido. (I say that nicely.. the man knows a lot, and you do not).

I'll speak for myself, new here: I still see borders as dots.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 06:44 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
I'll speak for myself, new here: I still see borders as dots.
It might help you to become more sophisticated in your thinking on the subject if your approached it through the labor market, using supply and demand theory
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 06:49 pm
@hawkeye10,
Would it? I've seen the labor market, from both or more sides. My father was an early union starter.

Don't yammer at me about being unsophisticated, you who prates about the collective.

And don't just assume I am always anti union. You seem to have simplistic takes.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 06:58 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
Would it? I've seen the labor market, from both or more sides
unless you start to act like you understand how much effect allowing illegals to work forces the pay scale down your opinion "borders are just dots" looks like ignorance. If you can justify your position taking into consideration the labor market impact great, but I don't think you can.
 

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