May I see your papers, citizen?

@engineer,

It wasn't that innocent.

@OmSigDAVID,

What if we return Texas to them? Would that shut those pesky Mexican aliens up? We could move the Texans first like me moved the Cherokee.

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

Quote:

What if we return Texas to them? Would that shut those pesky Mexican aliens up? We could move the Texans first like me moved the Cherokee.

said in jest I presume, but the way we solved the Indian problem could be used as a template for solving the Mexican problem.

0 Replies

@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

Cherry picked polls prove nothing.

Find me a poll that asks how many Americans would support a plan where undocumented immigrants can earn citizenship after paying a fine and learning English which is combined with increased border security.

I would go for that, but paying a fine and learning English are only two out of three. First, show me the increased border security, and by 'increased', I mean effective.

1 Reply

@roger,

border security is always going to run distant second in effectiveness to depriving illegals of money. We have to get to the bottom of taking apart the illegal economy in this nation, not only so that we can solve the Mexican problem, but so that we get get enough tax rev to pay our crushing public sector debts.

2 Replies

@plainoldme,

The latest version of the myth, featuring Bill Bob Thornton is a nice turn as Davy Crockett, really plastered over how much Americans wanted more slaves and wanted them in the Southwest. There really was a revolt by residents living in what is now Texas against the increasingly dictatorial rules of Mexico but Americans became involved in part because of the ambitions of Sam Houston and in part to extend slavery against the Compromise of 1820.

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

If police find them brawling or robbing and thay can t speak English,
that is a very fine idea.

Which gives the police some choices. Those who work hard cheaply and keep their nose clean just don't get stopped. I'm pretty sure there more than brawling and robbing as reasons for stop and search. It's a raw issue here in some parts.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

We have to get to the bottom of taking apart the illegal economy in this nation,

That's the last thing you want. Once you assume there's STUPID in the water you've lost your beam on the objective.

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@hawkeye10,

I think not, but it's a hard proposition to prove.

Given border security along with either the opportunity for citizenship or a legal right to work in the US, Mexicans would no longer have reason to participate in the underground economy. They would be protected by US labor law and pay US employment and income taxes. Not as simple and immediate as I make it sound, but I believe that is how it would work out in a few years. I'm willing to give it a try.

At the same time, there are probably things we could do to make Mexico a more attractive place in which to stay. For example, we could quit violating NAFTA by allowing Mexican trucks and drivers to operate in the US.

2 Replies

@roger,

Quote:

I think not, but it's a hard proposition to prove.

THE WAR ON DRUGS

Case Closed.

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@hawkeye10,

Huh?

0 Replies

@roger,

Quote:

Given border security along with either the opportunity for citizenship

they already have opportunity for legal immigration through citizenship. If you want to up the numbers allowed to take part we could talk, but we should never allow more immigrants into our nation than are good for us. Our best interests must take priority.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

sealing the border without taking care of the demand side will not work, the war on drugs proves it. Border security is not the primary fix. We need to keep Mexicans from wanting to come to America, by depriving those who violate our immigration system of work and government services. Those who take part of the usual legal immigration process will be shown the full hospitality of America. That means going to the American Embassy in their country and asking for permission to come...following the rules.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

My concept is that we really seal the border, then make it possible and relatively easy to legalize those who are already here. Has nothing to do with how many immigrants we allow. Given border security, it also has nothing to do with wars on drugs.

2 Replies

@roger,

Quote:

My concept is that we really seal the border

we have been doing our best to seal the border from drugs for 40 years, to very little effect at all. There is no reason to think what you want to do can be done, at any price.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Los Angeles police officials were reluctant to give an early estimate of the number of demonstrators, but said the turnout may be significantly less than the anticipated 100,000 people.

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-may-day-rally-2010,0,4454181.story?hpt=T2

That would be shocking, now wouldn't it.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

You probably haven't noticed that I was challenging Brown to come up with the effective border security that I insist on, in exchange for a path to citizenship that he insists on. You will probably never notice it, either.

roger wrote:

ebrown p wrote:

Cherry picked polls prove nothing.

Find me a poll that asks how many Americans would support a plan where undocumented immigrants can earn citizenship after paying a fine and learning English which is combined with increased border security.

I would go for that, but paying a fine and learning English are only two out of three. First, show me the increased border security, and by 'increased', I mean effective.

1 Reply

@roger,

It is your insisting upon what can not happen so long as we trade with Mexico, that is my point.

How about we leave border security where it is, so that is costs $2-4K to get smuggled in and a few people die in the process....as this keeps some mexicans at home.....Then work hard to deprive those already here of money and services. Then Give the mexicans a few years to get their asses back home, and the ones that want to be here badly enough to stick around, and who are industrious enough to make a go of it, a way to gain legal status? We will then take a fine, make them learn english, have them pass a citizenship test, and then they will be good to go.

Does this work for you?

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Organizers said the march would have a greater sense of urgency than past events, which have brought out thousands of participants, because of the Arizona law and the pace of deportations.

The tactics, too, have changed, with groups planning to be more aggressive and to risk arrest to get their message across, said Flavia Jimenez, a program director for the Illinois Coalition for Immigrant and Refugee Rights.

“This is a turning point for the immigrant community because we are really putting ourselves even physically on the line at this point to show the rest of the country the need for immigration reform,” Ms. Jimenez said. “We will continue to escalate as long as we don’t see any real movement on behalf of our government.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/us/02immig.html?pagewanted=2&hp

Have fun with that. I am confident that when the Feds finally move they will follow the people, who have already said clearly that we are fed up with illegals running around freely in our country, bringing with them crime and lowering the wage scales.

0 Replies

@roger,

Quote:

My concept is that we really seal the border, then make it possible and relatively easy to legalize those who are already here. Has nothing to do with how many immigrants we allow. Given border security, it also has nothing to do with wars on drugs.

Sealing the border -- i.e. ensuring that we make sure absolutely no one gets across without ruining damaging our economy or violating our own values, is really impossible. It should be clear to any reasonable person that what we are talking about is "significantly reducing" rather than "eliminating".

I think the area for compromise is in workplace enforcement, i.e. giving employers a very accurate way to quickly verify someones ability to work, and then strongly punishing people who violate. If you did this; then the flow across the border would greatly decrease.

I hate the idea of national ID-- but this seems like the direction the debate is going, and with reforms in other area, and if future enforcement is focused on employers, I would accept this.

Another way to relieve the pressure is to make legal immigration easier-- the most important part of this is that we need to offer much easier family reunification routes. Offering relief for same-sex marriages is also critical to any real solution.

Roger, I wonder if you and I could work out a set of details that both of us could feel comfortable.

3 Replies

May I see your papers, citizen?

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