May I see your papers, citizen?

@engineer,

Quote:

So if you step out of your house to walk the neighborhood without id and the police decide to ask for your papers, you are ok going to jail while the issue is sorted out? This is not really an issue for me since I have my wallet with me, but my wife walks without her purse.

My wife is Military, I am used to carrying my Department of Defense id at all times, and using it to get on base, at the checkout at base stores, when ever I walk into the clinic......I have to speak or type my SS to make a medical appointment..

I am a big personal freedom lover, but showing ID for cause is not a problem for me. Catching illegals is a good enough reason for me to be asked to show ID.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Lets say, for the sake of this duscussion, that today you legalize every illegal immigrant in the country RIGHT NOW. What are you going to do with those that are here illegally next year?

If you go back to the pre-1920 immigration regime, barely anyone will be here illegally next year -- because being here next year will be legal.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

I think the question was, What if you forgot you ID? You would be ok with going to jail to clear it up?

1 Reply

@maporsche,

Quote:

I think the question was, What if you forgot you ID? You would be ok with going to jail to clear it up?

I can memorize my ss #, name, and address...I think I'll be fine.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

I doubt reciting some memorized numbers will satisfy your local law enforcement official. Certainly any illegal citizen could do the same.

1 Reply

Quote:

The law's supporters hope the departure of illegal immigrants will help dismantle part of the underground economy here and create jobs for thousands of legal residents in a state with a 9.6 percent unemployment rate.

Kavanagh says day labor is generally off the books, and that deprives the state of much-needed tax dollars. ''We'll never eliminate it, just like laws against street prostitution,'' he says. ''But we can greatly reduce the prevalence.''

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/04/28/us/AP-US-Immigration-Day-Labor.html?_r=1

I have had my doubts about Arizona politicians in the past, but it is nice to see them doing good work for the citizens of Arizona. The illegals can go **** themselves, they are not Arizona's problem.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Rosa Parks lost her job because of her actions.
It was much later before she got the credit and the recognition she deserved.

Her reward was that one year after she sat on that seat, the federal district court for Southern Alabama struck down bus segregation as unconstitutional. (Browder v. Gayle) Considering the timescale on which the federal government operates, that's almost instant gratification.

mysteryman wrote:

As for Alice Paul, again she was not rewarded for her actions, unless you consider being arrested and going to jail a reward.

She didn't. But I bet she considered the 19th Amendment a reward. It was ratified in 1920 -- four years after the feds threw her in prison.

On a slight tangent, do you think Alice Paul should have been thrown in jail, given the facts of her case?

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

The Arizona law says that's not enough. You need a government issued ID.

I assume you'd be ok with that inconvenience.

I run in the mornings before work, I've mentioned that I usually carry my ID, but there are times I've forgotten. What could happen in AZ is that I forget my ID on my morning run, I jay-walk as to keep my heart rate up, an officer stops me for breaking the law, I don't have my ID, I go to jail, I miss work and pay for the day or however long it takes.

I don't think I'm ok with that possibility.

1 Reply

@engineer,

Quote:

I doubt reciting some memorized numbers will satisfy your local law enforcement official. Certainly any illegal citizen could do the same.

I am rarely more than a few minutes from my car when I am about town, that should clear it up. It has a VIN number, plates, and everything.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:

I doubt reciting some memorized numbers will satisfy your local law enforcement official. Certainly any illegal citizen could do the same.
I am rarely more than a few minutes from my car when I am about town, that should clear it up. It has a VIN number, plates, and everything.

You just don't ******* get it, do you? When you are being harassed by the cops over this, you're not going to saunter over to your car with the officer to 'clear it up.' This is a pretext, a legal allowance for throwing people into jail.

I wonder if you have any idea the kinds of interactions that poor folks and minorities have with the cops...

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@maporsche,

Quote:

The Arizona law says that's not enough. You need a government issued ID.

wrong

Quote:

The ID requested is hardly draconian: a driver's license, a non-operating identification license, valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification, or "any valid United States federal, state, or local government issued identification." Rather than requiring multiple IDs as some fear, the law clearly says that "any" of the IDs is sufficient. And the notion of having to carry IDs is not something unique to Arizona. President Obama and many Democrats, such as Senator Charles Schumer, support a national ID card, so it hard to argue that Arizona's requirement will impose an undue burden.

Even if a person does not present the required ID, that doesn't necessarily mean the person faces problems. The new Arizona law requires that "a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person." Today, this is not hard to accomplish quickly as computer records have photographs and other identifying details for people who have state-issued IDs. The only exception to making "a reasonable attempt" is if making that investigation would "hinder or obstruct" a criminal investigation. That isn't going to effect many cases.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/04/26/john-lott-arizona-immigration-law-fear-enforcement/

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Then I guess you're ok. I for one am not so comfortable. While I usually carry my wallet, when I job or cycle, maybe not. I'd rather not have to worry about being sent to jail every time I leave home. What kind of id do you provide for children? My fifteen year old only carries his license when he plans to drive and I doubt his high school id carries much official weight.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Factually, it is the State of Arizona that is screwing itself (and the undocumented immigrants have nothing to do with it).

This week Americans from American elected officials in California, to American truck drivers to American entertainers (now Shakira is speaking out) have been as furious as I am about this law-- and we are all talking payback. There have already been canceled conferences (Arizona depends on its conference and tourism), travel bans to Arizona from American organizations and American truck drivers refusing to go to Arizona.

Arizona is already the butt of jokes from Colbert and Stewart to Saturday Night Live. Even conservative Republican politicians are balking (hearing Karl Rove "regret" this bill was a special treat).

Then there will be the millions of dollars of lawsuits. Paid for by the taxpayers of Arizona. Oklahoma lost millions of dollars for their anti-immigrant law-- and Arizona's is far more extreme then theirs.

I wish they hadn't gone and done this-- but as long as they have, I am going to enjoy my schadenfreude.

3 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

You just don't ******* get it, do you? When you are being harassed by the cops over this, you're not going to saunter over to your car with the officer to 'clear it up.' This is a pretext, a legal allowance for throwing people into jail.

I think we saw clearly in the debate here about the arrest of Prof Gates that I trust cops more than some of you fellow a2k'ers do.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
The Arizona law says that's not enough. You need a government issued ID.

wrong

Quote:
The ID requested is hardly draconian: a driver's license, a non-operating identification license, valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification, or "any valid United States federal, state, or local government issued identification." Rather than requiring multiple IDs as some fear, the law clearly says that "any" of the IDs is sufficient. And the notion of having to carry IDs is not something unique to Arizona. President Obama and many Democrats, such as Senator Charles Schumer, support a national ID card, so it hard to argue that Arizona's requirement will impose an undue burden.

Even if a person does not present the required ID, that doesn't necessarily mean the person faces problems. The new Arizona law requires that "a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person." Today, this is not hard to accomplish quickly as computer records have photographs and other identifying details for people who have state-issued IDs. The only exception to making "a reasonable attempt" is if making that investigation would "hinder or obstruct" a criminal investigation. That isn't going to effect many cases.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/04/26/john-lott-arizona-immigration-law-fear-enforcement/

Your link is specifically wrong about the facts of the bill. Not that this is surprising.

To wit, this

Quote:

or "any valid United States federal, state, or local government issued identification."

...is untrue. Only identification which requires you to prove your citizenship at the time it was issued is considered valid under the bill. Otherwise I could use my city of Berkeley library card.

Even then, you mis-read the post you were responding to. The statement was that you knowing your SS and having a car with a VIN, etc., is not enough.

You 'think you'll be fine,' because you're not a Hispanic guy and down deep, you know what the score really is, don't you? Other people don't feel that way.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Aren't those all government IDs? Even the tribal identification card is a government ID.

Where on that list does it say you can instead memorize your SS# and home address? Where does it say that your vehicle VIN# will replace the need for one of those forms of ID?

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
You just don't ******* get it, do you? When you are being harassed by the cops over this, you're not going to saunter over to your car with the officer to 'clear it up.' This is a pretext, a legal allowance for throwing people into jail.

I think we saw clearly in the debate here about the arrest of Prof Gates that I trust cops more than some of you fellow a2k'ers do.

That's immaterial to the discussion of laws which impact MY rights as a citizen.

And I do find it to be decidedly odd that you applaud an expansion of police and prosecutor powers while at the same time continually decrying the government, which you says is 'too big.' Are you for more powers over the people or less?

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@maporsche,

Sorry, cross posted with Cyclops....but the inaccurate and flippant response of your Hawkeye, deserves two rebuttals.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

Sorry, cross posted with Cyclops....but the inaccurate and flippant response of your Hawkeye, deserves two rebuttals.

I am glad that we can be in agreement on this issue Laughing

Srsly tho - can you imagine the same law passed on the Canadian border? It's a hell of a lot bigger, surely lots of illegal immigrants are getting in that way too...

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@ebrown p,

Quote:

Oklahoma lost millions of dollars for their anti-immigrant law-- and Arizona's is far more extreme then theirs.

Ya, I read the claim, which was a guess of what could happen but I never saw any documentation that suggests that Oklahoma actually did suffer any substantial economic loses. The law seems to be quite gutted by the courts for the time being, but in any case if the citizens of Oklahoma have suffered so badly from this law why have they not moved to appeal it? Why are leaders from other states coming to talk to them to inquire about replicating the law?

I do not believe the claims about what happened in Oklahoma, and the statements from the Arizona gov that she thinks that claims of potential damage in Arizona are greatly exaggerated indicate to me that she does not either.

1 Reply

May I see your papers, citizen?

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