51
   

May I see your papers, citizen?

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 06:16 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
When you've been brought up on the idea that the Federal government can provide no benefits,
only taxation and intrusions into your life, the idea of a 'national ID card' is terrifying.


Implying that it is a conservative issue is misleading, national ID is more strongly opposed from the left in America than the right.

This particular silliness isn't something you can blame the other side for.
Let the record indicate that I oppose a national Id. card, tho de facto, driver's licenses serve that purpose
in that government knows about u when it grants the thing.





David
0 Replies
 
hamburgboy
 
  3  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 06:18 pm
@old europe,
Quote:
I have not much reason to believe that people who sell over their lives to human traffickers are always making this kind of well informed decision, and I have not much reason to believe that people who end up in a highly exploitative work environment as a result are free to decide to simply walk away from this situation.


old europe :
" couldn't have said it better myself " .

indeed , you give a very good explanation of why and how some people find themselves in very dangerous jobs - they often simply do not know - and the employer will usually not tell them - even if asked .
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 06:22 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:
Commie Aliens sapping your precious bodily fluids.... ummm.
That 's kind of a clever remark. I saw that movie.
I don 't think that the Mexican intruders are commies,
but in the spirit of criminality, when it becomes possible
for their progeny to vote, thay will use democracy as a weapon
to vote themselves a free ride, ripping off the financially successful, as well as thay possibly can.

I suspect that thay will drag America to the left, away from personal freedom.

I prefer a FREE country.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  8  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 06:24 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

What disturbs me more than anything else,
is the apprehension that the following generation of Mexicans
will be able to vote and will drag the electorate toward the left,
ending America as being the Land of the Free
and the Home of the Brave, replaced by a welfare state of docile citizens.

I'm surprised you believe this for two reasons. First, Mexicans in general are very conservative and very religious. Both Reagan and Wilson in his first term as governor of CA both played heavily to this. (Wilson veered anti-immigrant later.) Reagan felt that Mexican Americans would be a very fertile recruiting ground for Republicans and legislated accordingly. Second, Mexican immigrants are notoriously hard workers. Rates of immigrant housing loan defaults are lower than their American counterparts of similar income and as the article I linked to earlier points out, they are generally grateful for the job and apply themselves making them favorites of employers. They certainly don't risk their lives to come here and get welfare.

Only the continuous anti-immigrant rants from the Republicans have driven the immigrant vote leftward. If that voting tendency bothers you, you should go after those who demonize immigrants and drive them that way.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 06:30 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Only the continuous anti-immigrant rants from the Republicans have driven the immigrant vote leftward. If that voting tendency bothers you, you should go after those who demonize immigrants and drive them that way.


That is a lie. Republicans have been Anti Illegal Immigrant at times, but they have universally supported legal immigration, and often supported increasing quota's.

Mexicans should not get a pass for punishing Republicans because they don't support an illegal activity. It shows a moral lapse on the Mexicans, and we should be honest about that.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 06:38 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
So quit your job and look for another employer.

You've acknowledged that there are certain behaviors egregious enough that they should be discouraged. Drunk driving was the example.

I believe that unsafe work environments is another area that should be discouraged, because they represent a risk to all workers.

All employers need to be on a level playing field.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 06:46 pm
@engineer,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
What disturbs me more than anything else,
is the apprehension that the following generation of Mexicans
will be able to vote and will drag the electorate toward the left,
ending America as being the Land of the Free
and the Home of the Brave, replaced by a welfare state of docile citizens.
engineer wrote:
I'm surprised you believe this for two reasons.
First, Mexicans in general are very conservative and very religious.
How is religion significant ?
I was looking at it from the perspective of the poor using democracy
to parasitically rip off the more financially successful.





engineer wrote:
Both Reagan and Wilson in his first term as governor of CA both played heavily to this.
(Wilson veered anti-immigrant later.) Reagan felt that Mexican Americans would be
a very fertile recruiting ground for Republicans and legislated accordingly.
Do Mexican areas elect Republicans ??
I dunno, but that seems unlikely.
Do u know ?


engineer wrote:
Second, Mexican immigrants are notoriously hard workers.
Yeah.



engineer wrote:
Rates of immigrant housing loan defaults are lower than their American counterparts of similar income and as the article I linked to earlier points out, they are generally grateful for the job and apply themselves making them favorites of employers. They certainly don't risk their lives to come here and get welfare.

Only the continuous anti-immigrant rants from the Republicans have driven the immigrant vote leftward. If that voting tendency bothers you, you should go after those who demonize immigrants and drive them that way.
Interesting post.


If I thought that Mexican illegal aliens and their progeny
were of the Originalist American philosophy,
as libertarian Individualists, then
I 'd deem defense of our Southern border a lot less imperative.






David
engineer
 
  5  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 06:49 pm
@hawkeye10,
You really think that that's a lie? Honestly? You think Latinos vote Democrat because they are inveterate lefties, what with their strict Catholic upbringing and focus on the family and all? Republicans have paid lip service to legal immigration while demonizing immigrants and stoking anti-immigrant sentiments since Reagan left office and it has been a winning strategy for them. McCain has been the only national Republican to seriously address illegal immigration and he was practically burned at the stake for it (although he tacked hard enough to the right after that to recover before the Presidential primaries.) Republicans have shown a lot more interest is maintaining this as an issue than trying to fix it. Sure, they always say "we support legal immigration" right after the fifteen minute tirade about how Mexicans are taking jobs and sucking up all the welfare dollars.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 06:49 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:
I just don't know how those anecdotes are supposed to support sweeping generalizations.

My observations are no more anecdotal, and my conclusions no more sweeping, than those of my opponents condemning all American employers of illegal immigrants. There certainly is a lot of variation among employers as well.

old europe wrote:
How do you know that? How large is the number of illegal immigrants working in house keeping, gardening and baby sitting versus the number of illegal immigrants who are working in exploitative situations, under the threat of use of force or coercion?

You're changing the subject on me. Originally, your claim was that illegal immigrants can't make an informed decision where they like work conditions better. I responded that once they're in the US, they've experienced both places, and can make an informed decision. It doesn't matter if they work in gardening, in babysitting, in housekeeping or in pig-slaughtering. What matters is that they know what they're choosing between.

I'm not defending American employers who imprison Mexicans or anybody else. But wrongful imprisonment is a completely different issue from mere employment, which is what we've been discussing all the time before.

old europe wrote:
I realize that you don't support forced labor, but without knowledge about what percentage of illegal employment in the United States is due to forced labor, how do you argue that all illegal employment is the result of a well-informed decision on part of an illegal immigrant not to terminate that work relationship?

You have the same problem with legal employment. Off the top of your head, can you tell me precisely how many US citizens and lawful residents are held in sweatshops, brothels, and domestic service against their will? If not, does that mean we have to criminalize employers of US Americans, too?

But in an effort to answer your question, I searched the Web for the term " 'forced labor' 'illegal immigrants' ". Several studies from reputable sources came up, suggesting that the number of forced laborers ranges "into the tens of thousands". (Source: Cornell University and UC Berkeley (PDF)). Compare that to the number of illegal immigrants, which is 7-10 million (Source: Congressional Budget Office (PDF)), and you find that less than a percent of illegal immigrants could be victims of forced labor.

Forced labor is a very serious crime. But it's a separate issue from illegal immigration.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  5  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 06:56 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

How is religion significant ?

The Republican party has traditionally aligned itself with the Christian church.
OmSigDAVID wrote:

engineer wrote:
Both Reagan and Wilson in his first term as governor of CA both played heavily to this.
(Wilson veered anti-immigrant later.) Reagan felt that Mexican Americans would be
a very fertile recruiting ground for Republicans and legislated accordingly.
Do Mexican areas elect Republicans ??
I dunno, but that seems unlikely.
Do u know ?

Yes, Latinos were a key constituency of Reagan and Wilson when they were governors. Wilson made a conscious decision to move to an anti-immigrant position later in his governorship.

OmSigDAVID wrote:
If I thought that Mexican illegal aliens and their progeny were of the Originalist American philosophy,
as libertarian Individualists, then
I 'd deem defense of our Southern border a lot less imperative.

I think that people who risk their lives to leave their home countries for a new life where they could succeed with hard work and dedication sounds very originalist to me. Maybe they need a few generations before they start producing Jeffersons and Washingtons.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 07:02 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Republicans have paid lip service to legal immigration
republicans have fought long and hard, much more then DEMS, to increase the number of temporary work visa's. The reason is not noble, they are doing the bidding of the corporate class who want cheap labor, but they are most certainly not anti immigrant.

I am with Robert on this....both parties are guilty. I my opinion they are both guilty of not fixing the problem of illegal immigration, and for not supporting their words with actions.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 07:06 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
What disturbs me more than anything else,
is the apprehension that the following generation of Mexicans
will be able to vote and will drag the electorate toward the left,
ending America as being the Land of the Free
and the Home of the Brave, replaced by a welfare state of docile citizens.

OmSigDAVID, since you live in the New York area, may I emphatically suggest that you take a day and visit Ellis Island? You will find that 100 years ago, nativist Americans raised exactly the same concerns about immigrants from Russia, Italy, and Ireland. And look how that played out.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 07:40 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
What disturbs me more than anything else,
is the apprehension that the following generation of Mexicans
will be able to vote and will drag the electorate toward the left,
ending America as being the Land of the Free
and the Home of the Brave, replaced by a welfare state of docile citizens.

OmSigDAVID, since you live in the New York area, may I emphatically suggest that you take a day and visit Ellis Island? You will find that 100 years ago, nativist Americans raised exactly the same concerns about immigrants from Russia, Italy, and Ireland. And look how that played out.
Neither I, nor any of my ancestors have ever been to Ellis Island.
I am under the general impression that Ellis Island is like a ghost town
of very large, abandoned empty buildings.

Will u be a little more specific qua what I stand to achieve
by going there ?





David
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 07:54 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDavid wrote:
Neither I, nor any of my ancestors have ever been to Ellis Island.
I am under the general impression that Ellis Island is like a ghost town
of very large, abandoned empty buildings.

That used to be true until about 10 years ago. In the meantime, the National Park Service has turned Ellis Island into a National Monument. They are restoring the site slowly, building by building. The main building, which has been there the longest and where the immigrants were processed, has opened to the public and is harboring a number of exhibitions. One thing you can do is follow the immigrants as they go through the process of beeing screened, admitted, or rejected. Another exhibition in the main building documents political attitudes, both by natives towards immigrants and by immigrants towards America. I found all exhibitions extremely interesting, and very illuminating of current debates about immigration. I warmly recommend it to every New Yorker, and every visitor to New York.
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 08:07 pm
@DrewDad,
For nearly a century after Emancipation, Blacks, particularly Black men, faced trumped up charges in order that their labor would be provided free to what the South had hoped would become its industry. Yet people hated the Blacks rather than the whites who abused the Blacks.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 08:10 pm
@Rockhead,
Corporate disobedience happens daily but none of it is civil.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 08:18 pm
Hate to provide a link but the piece refuses to allow itself to be copied:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100427/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_enforcement/print;_ylt=AjapRj4L0kHzU7UGt8WKpYJH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTBvajZzaTFyBHBvcwMxNQRzZWMDdG9wBHNsawNwcmludA--
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 08:20 pm
@plainoldme,
My server can't open this so I will try again:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100427/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_enforcement/print;_ylt=AjapRj4L0kHzU7UGt8WKpYJH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTBvajZzaTFyBHBvcwMxNQRzZWMDdG9wBHNsawNwcmludA--

The story is The Furor Grows Over AZ Illegal immigration LAw by Jonathan Cooper of the AP.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 09:08 pm
@Thomas,
OmSigDavid wrote:
Neither I, nor any of my ancestors have ever been to Ellis Island.
I am under the general impression that Ellis Island is like a ghost town
of very large, abandoned empty buildings.
Thomas wrote:
That used to be true until about 10 years ago.
In the meantime, the National Park Service has turned Ellis Island into a National Monument. They are restoring the site slowly, building by building. The main building, which has been there the longest and where the immigrants were processed, has opened to the public and is harboring a number of exhibitions. One thing you can do is follow the immigrants as they go through the process of beeing screened, admitted, or rejected. Another exhibition in the main building documents political attitudes, both by natives towards immigrants and by immigrants towards America. I found all exhibitions extremely interesting, and very illuminating of current debates about immigration. I warmly recommend it to every New Yorker, and every visitor to New York.
Is much walking necessary to enjoyment of the facility ?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 09:15 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
If you don't trust your legs, it's not so much the walking you need to worry about. It'll be the standing in line. You'll wait in front of the ticket counter in Clinton Castle, and then again in front of the tent in Battery park, where you go through security before you enter the ship. Once you're on the island, it's 50 yards from the ship to the entry, and as much walking as you want within the Museum. (I'm pretty sure they have elevators, but maybe you want to check just to be sure.)
 

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