Top Ten Livable Countries

I would like to live on the moon....I could run around naked....bench press 1000 lbs. and no noise ordinance. Get out my Ozzy cd's

Bi- Glad to see ya! You sound like yourself, but you look like you are in a bit of a snit!

Phoenix that picture was snapped just as I was trying to get up from the outhouse.....my fur froze to the seat.........

I'm sure Bi-Polar Bear knows there's no air on the moon, so no need for any noise ordinances! With no spacesuit, he's headed for Heaven anyway.

I know that all my long term friendships are in this area and it would be difficult to convince any of them to move with me so I'm rooted here -- that's one good reason why I look at these lists and can safely say "hoo-hum." I also know that the downsides of living here are not going to improve but likely get worse. I just hope it takes long enough for me to leave the planet. I can still drive down Pacific Coast Highway without much traffic (well, during the week when many are at work and considering this time of year), have lunch over the ocean in Laguna Beach and rattle around in the shops and museums that are local (Newport Harbor Museum isn't that bad nor is the Laguna Beach Museum). It's engrained in our minds, I think, that we are entrenched where we are at and these lists aren't important to us. But they do tell a tale -- our politicians and corporate leaders should also always be finding a way to improve the conditions in our cities and their suberbs. A good startfor us as individuals -- get rid of that SUV you don't need! At least in California, the excuse that one needs one for their family is moot -- most every one I see at any time driving the streets and freeways contain ONE person!

Hey, and Welcome Bi-Polar Bear!

Hello bi polar!

It's silly to argue against the obvious truth noted by fishin and others that such lists have an inevitable bias. Yet they do (the sophisticated ones, that is) measure significant factors and I'd expect them to be pretty close to what most of us would find.

All of which is really just a polite intro to me bragging about two recent developments here, one federal, and the second, civic.

At the federal level, the government is next week introducing a bill which will totally ban both corporate and trade union donations to political parties and limit individual donations to a ceiling of $10,000 and require disclosure of those contributions over $200.

At the civic level, elections one week previous produced a landslide victory (use of 'landslide' here not an exaggeration) to a candidate who has been at the forefront of establishing an approach to drug treatment including safe injection sites (with medical help, clean needles, counselling, etc) in the city (he had been the coroner previously and considers present war on drug policies utterly barbaric. This was one of the main issues of the campaign and Vancouverites agreed in overwhelming numbers. Further to this, John Walters, the US drug czar came to town about the same time with his travelling troup of lousy statistics and failed ideas and he got just trounced in local editorials.

<stumbling in, late as usual>

What I don't see as anyone's criterion (and if I've missed that, please point it out for me) is religious freedom.

And not just freedom, but a freedom from religious bias. For me, this puts the US very, very high on the list, and Israel low (even though I'm Jewish - silly me, I want equality for all religions). Which of these countries on the index has an 'official religion' or, at the very least, politico-religious parties like "Christian Democrats"?

If you cut those out, my list of livable countries becomes pretty short - the US, Canada and who else?

No England
No Spain
No France
No Germany
etc.

And I'm saying all of this even though I'm not a very religious person. I guess the point I'm making is about minorities of any sort. How well are they treated in any of these countries? Are they welcomed? Or are they seen as somehow 'infecting' an otherwise 'pure' nation?

I don't think "The Economist" and it's survey intelligence group would a good method to actually determine how much religious freedom there is in the countries they rated as the most liveable (or the cities for that matter). I guess it could be determined by how many Buddhist, Jewish temples or Muslim Mosques, et al, there are in each country? Are there laws in those countries specifically forbidding certain religions or are did these religions never get a foothold in those countries because they've never been that interested in proselytizing in those countries? Religions are introduced into countries who never had a following for that religion by missionaries. Somehow it's difficult to imagine a native German deciding to become a Buddhist and the government stops him. Sure, it's in our Constitution as written for those who left England because of religious oppression (and we were pretty short of Buddhist and Muslims at that time). I'm not up on what countries have any laws specifically forbidding certain religions, or if they truly are oppressive towards any particular religion. However, I'm having trouble imagining any of the governments of the countries and/or cities at the top of this lists practicing religious oppression.

I'm curious about how bias effects the results unless there's statistical manipulation in the survey. I'm not really willing to swallow that one. In other words, you're allowed to be biased about the survey being biased because the results are not what you want to see.

In conclusion, do we also think we are the best planet in the galaxy?

Well, we're a really cool planet, but I hear Alpha Centauri 5 is awesome!

But about religious freedom - a former SSR (and sorry, but I'm totally forgetting which one; it might be the Ukraine) has a list of "official religions". They are all listed as "equal" but the Eastern Orthodox religion is apparently "first among equals". This law (yeah, it's that official) has been used to prevent Buddhists from worshipping. Would I want to live there, even though Judaism is one of the "official religions"? Hell, no!

I think the best gauge is to start with laws and customs. I think most of us see Spain (if we think of this at all) as a "Catholic country". This may not be official, but certainly the vast majority of Spaniards are Catholics and there may be a certain societal bias in favor of that faith. This makes Spain, for me, a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

Just to clarify something on my part - When I mentioned the survey methodology I wasn't pushing towards bias. I do think it is important for people to know that there were only 130 cities that were even looked at and that there may be others that were never even considered. All of the other cities in the world would dovetail into their list, not just be addedd onto the end of it. IMO that is a pretty important distinction. I don't disagree with thier list. I don't know enough about each of these places to disagree or agree.

As for the "Livable Cities" movement - I have some reservations about their thinking. For example, Boston ranks high on the list yet Cambridge MA isn't even considered because they consider it a suburb even though Cambridge has better access to most of the activities in Boston than most of Boston does.. The whole movement is based on the premise that urban living is the only way to go.

Interesting, Jespah, one reason I am an official catholic is to be in sympathy with the many countries having that as their main religion.

I read your list first, rather than reading your intro, and thought... why does she want to live in North Spain and North England! LOL WHAT???

Religious tolerance is important... Do you know which countries have no state religion? I think even Canada has a state religion.

Yeah, but Canadia's state religion is beer, hockey and doughnuts, with no requirement of attendance or public avowal . . .

You make that sound like it's a bad thing!

Public avowal to hockey is, unfortunately, mandatory.

"Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:

Section 1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Section 2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of conscience and religion; freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication; freedom of peaceful assembly; and freedom of association...."


Yep, I think it's right in there with opinion, expression and association. I don't know about the hockey -- it does say peaceful assembly.

Yes, and the accompanying illustrations have God in a ref jersey.

Hhm.
Yes, there is a "Christian Democratic Union" (and their Bavariab "Christian Socialist Union") in Germany.

However, we don't have e.g. a 'motto' like "In God we trust", no-one has to swear 'to God', no 12 commandments in courts, you can't be married (legally) by any religious servant ...

Religious Freedom in Germany

Walter makes a good point Jes....the freedom to NOT have god hanging about. There are elements, increasingly powerful I think, within the fundamentalist christian movement who are so single-minded about The One True faith, that they pose a significant danger to freedom of religion. I know you are quite aware of this, but it's a point which Walter correctly alludes to.

God in a referee's jersey??? Omigosh. Do you have a link???

Walter, the German Grundgesetz, looks quite clear and offers a lot of freedom both to have a religion, or to not be compelled.

You do know it's more commonly known as the "Ten Commandments," right? heeeehee

U.S CONSTITUTION - BILL OF RIGHTS:
Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

_______
The most interesting part of all the God references in this Constitution is Jesus is not mentioned, people forget that!

I think the list infers that the suburbs around the cities are also very livable (although European cities aren't much on suburbs). By what you're saying, it would be interesting to know how they came up with 130 cities -- I can imagine there's some population consideration but more research would be needed.

Jespah -- do they have oceans on that planet?

Okay, you've given me an example of a country not on the list. I could understand why those countries are slow to include some form of freedom of religion but do they have a state religion? That's why freedom of religion was included in the Bill of Rights -- which was tacked onto the Constitution due to objections by many leaders in the Colonies.

I would be the most interested in crime and pollution as criteria but if there is some kind of equality issue within the criteria, then the survey is flawed. I don't believe there is as far as I can see but if one wants to doubt the source and research it, there's links to both the UN and EUI sources. I will take the time to probe further without getting hysterical about it