Atheism

@Setanta,

Quote:

the following is from Religious Tolerance dot org, just about the best broadly-based descriptive site for religions . . . and the lack of religion.

Yet again displaying your selective reading habits. The following is from that site:

Quote:

The world is composed mainly of Theists: people who believe in the existence of one or more Gods and/or Goddesses out of the many thousands that have been worshipped down through history. A minority of people are strong Atheists who deny that any deity or deities exist...

However, there is a third group who, when asked whether a deity or deities exist, don't have a yes or no answer. They are the 10% of American adults who hold Agnostic beliefs about God's existence.

Dictionary definitions of "Agnostic:"

bullet Houghton Mifflin: "One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism." 6

bullet Columbia encyclopedia: "[A belief] that the existence of God cannot be logically proved or disproved. Agnosticism is not to be confused with atheism which asserts that there is no God." 7

bullet Wikipedia: ['A belief] that the (truth) values of certain claims -- particularly theological claims regarding the existence of God, gods, or deities -- are unknown, inherently unknowable, or incoherent, and therefore, irrelevant to life." 8

bullet Merriam-Webster: "A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god." 9

bullet Die.net: "One who professes ignorance, or denies that we have any knowledge, save of phenomena; one who supports agnosticism, neither affirming nor denying the existence of a personal Deity, a future life, etc." 10

bullet WordNet: " A person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but does not deny that God might exist)." 11

bullet Wiktionary: "Doubtful or uncertain about the existence or demonstrability of God or other deity

http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic2.htm

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@Setanta,

Quote:

Bullshit . . . how it is defined is very crucial for substantive purpose...

Not surprising that you confuse form with substance, axioms with reality, etc. Which of those many definition that I just gave and which presented by the site that YOU say is "neutral" do you like? Not that it makes any substantive difference, but....

1 Reply

@layman,

That's not selective reading at all. I was not concerned with a definition of agnostic, you'll need to take that up with Frank.

Earlier, you attempted to claim that atheists hold an untenable position, because they cannot prove that there is no god. They aren't obliged to do so. You want to insist on your idiosyncratic definition of atheist, because the entire house of cards which apparently passes for logic at your house collapses unless you can insist on your definition.

Now you're attempting to muddy the waters. This thread is about the experience of being an atheist and agnostic has nothing to do with that. All your contribution has done is to show some of the common, witless anti-atheist screeds we see around here. You did that pages ago--you're just repeating yoruself now.

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@layman,

Oh man, you're either incredibly obtuse, or just plain stupid. None of those are definitions of atheists. Your reasoning abilities are also, apparently, nearly non-existent. At no time did i define Religious Tolerance dot org as "neutral," although i would consider it an apt descriptor.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

That's not selective reading at all. I was not concerned with a definition of agnostic..

Obviously.

Quote:

However, there is a third group who, when asked whether a deity or deities exist, don't have a yes or no answer. They are the 10% of American adults who hold Agnostic beliefs about God's existence.

1 Reply

Not sufficiently obvious, though, that you picked it up until i pointed it out to you. Once again, you had attempted to claim that the position of an atheist is untenable because an atheist cannot prove that there is no god. Definitions of agnostic are completely meaningless in the discussion of such an idiotic ipse dixit claim. It seems that you cannot even keep track of the conversation.

1 Reply

@layman,

juxtaposition:

layman wrote:

I was a bartender once. For a couple of days, anyway, until I got fired. I thought a bartender's main job was to steal from the till and short-change people, and, of course, making them smile does help accomplish that main task.

Source

layman wrote:

Another general observation I will share. A lot of people don't have a particularly high opinion of atheists

Source

I don't have a very high opinion of whatever group(s) you belong to either based on your ethics.

1 Reply

@layman,

layman wrote:

Quote:
That's not selective reading at all. I was not concerned with a definition of agnostic..

Obviously.

This was your post which you had not yet edited when i responded. However, it makes no difference in a discussion of your stupid remark about atheists. Remarks about agnostics have nothing to do with remarks about atheists. It's a shame that you need to have that pointed out to you.

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@hingehead,

What ethics?

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@Setanta,

Quote:

Not sufficiently obvious, though, that you picked it up until i pointed it out to you. Once again, you had attempted to claim that the position of an atheist is untenable because an atheist cannot prove that there is no god

I never said that. Again, just another in a never-ending wave of strawmen. You don't have to be able to "prove" a position for it to be "tenable." That was never my point, and certainly NOT what I said.

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@layman,

I will repeat this once more, without the clutter of all the dictionary definitions:

Quote:

The world is composed mainly of Theists: people who believe in the existence of one or more Gods and/or Goddesses out of the many thousands that have been worshipped down through history.

A minority of people are strong Atheists who deny that any deity or deities exist...

However, there is a third group who, when asked whether a deity or deities exist, don't have a yes or no answer. They are the 10% of American adults who hold Agnostic beliefs about God's existence.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

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I have checked ant it was the idiot Ionus who claimed that the position of atheist is untenable because they cannot prove there is no god.

That just leaves us with your idiotic pronouncements about agnostics and free-thinkers. That was the only reason i engaged you in this thread, because of your pompous claims on that subject.

Now you're using carefully chosen definitions to attempt to dominate the conversation again. You're doing by selectively quoting Religious Tolerance dot org--behavior you execrate in others.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

People went nuts..because I was not toeing the party line...People went batshit crazy…and I decided to take a vacation from what I was beginning to see as a bunch of close-minded automatons

You think it's ironic, or merely predictable, that these types would tend to label themselves as "freethinkers," Frank?

1 Reply

@Setanta,

You know you are wasting your time, when the 'opposition' has no knowledge about logic 101.

He wants you to prove there is no god, when they are the ones who must show proof there is one. Simple minded folks need to understand how human communication works, and it's not the atheist to prove there is or there isn't a god. It's the folks who believe there is a god to prove it.

They are totally confused about who needs to show proof.

Maybe, they can show proof there's a tooth fairy. LOL

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@layman,

There was no real thinking going on in that thread...not "free" or otherwise, Layman. It was STONEWALL and do not even allow something that was obvious and relatively innocuous to break through.

The reaction amazed me. And since I am disposed to resent Intelligent Design, it sickened me. The vacation was needed. I was set to over-react.

Oh, well.

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From Twitter
@FlyingTrilobite Glendon Mellow

Wistfully remembering my early internet days when I naively believed most atheists shared similar values to my own. An opalescent bubble.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

You're doing by selectively quoting Religious Tolerance dot org

Heh. Hardly. I'm just balancing and correcting the distorted view which you presented as being held by that site. More from your preferred website on the topic:

Quote:

...some Agnostics consider themselves to be Atheists. That is because the term "Atheist" has two slightly different meanings:

1. Strong Atheist: A person who positively believes that no God(s) or Goddess(es) exists....This is the definition of Atheism used by most Christians, other Theists, and dictionaries of the English language

2. A person who has no belief in a God or Goddess...This is the definition of Atheism used by many Atheists.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic2.htm

Just tryin to keep in real here, ya know?

If I wanted to use the language correctly, which one of these would I choose, I wonder?:

1." The definition of Atheism used by dictionaries of the English language," or
2. "The definition of Atheism used by many Atheists."

Hmmm..."many atheists" (a definite minority with a special agenda to promote) or " dictionaries of the English language?"

That's a tough one. Let me study on it for a good long spell, OK?

1 Reply

@layman,

Keeping it real . . . ah-hahahahahahahahahaha . . . you're a legend in your own mind,. You made a wild accusation to the effect that i had introduced many straw man fallacies into the discussion--not that you were able to demonstrate that, or made any effort to do so. I presented no point of view, distorted or otherwise, as being held by that site. I simply stated that they provided a good deal of information about religions,and no religion.

You should study a lot of things for a good long time. "Many atheists" does not of necessity mean "a definite minority with a special agenda to promote." What would you have to talk about if you stopped introducing distortions into the discussion?

1 Reply

Here, this is exactly how i described Religious Tolerance dot org:

Quote:

the following is from Religious Tolerance dot org, just about the best broadly-based descriptive site for religions . . . and the lack of religion.

I didn't call it neutral (although i would consider that apt). I also did not characterize the point of view of the web side. I guess you'd have nothing to bitch about if you didn't make **** up. If anyone has a problem with the reliance on straw man fallacies here, i'd say it's you.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

"Many atheists" does not of necessity mean "a definite minority with a special agenda to promote."

Yeah, right, eh?

Quote:

The Gallup Organization regularly finds that about 93% of the 228.2 million American adults (excluding those in Alaska and Hawaii) believe in either a personal God or some "higher power....12% are either Atheists (do not believe in God's existence) or Agnostics (do not know whether a personal God exists)....The number of American adults with Agnostic beliefs: This is now accurately known as a result of the ARIS studies: it is about 10% of the adult population -- on the order of 23 million. 1 It is the second largest religious belief system, after Christianity.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist1a.htm

Do the math for yourself. Those statistics indicate that atheists are 2%. So "many atheists" would only be some unspecified portion of that 2%. That seems to take care of the "minority" aspect of the statement you're disputing.

Quote:

Now in its 51st year, American Atheists is dedicated to working for the civil rights of atheists, promoting separation of state and church, and providing information about atheism. Over the last fifty years, American Atheists has...
•Held atheist conventions and gatherings throughout the United States, including "Atheist Pride" marches in state capitals
•Demonstrated and picketed throughout the country on behalf of atheist rights and state/church separation
•Published hundreds of books about atheism, criticism of religion, and state/church separation
•Granted college scholarships to young atheist activists

American Atheists is dedicated to developing and supporting a healthy, thriving, and respected atheist community in the United States, with over 100 affiliates....American Atheists launches billboard campaigns throughout the year to encourage closeted atheists to "come out" and celebrate their atheism. We critique religious bigotry, the use of religion as a weapon by politicians, and the hypocrisy of all religions...American Atheists is excited to announce what is believed to be the first atheism-dedicated television channel, Atheist TV.

American Atheists is just one of dozens of atheist/secular organizations in the U.S. alone according to Wiki. http://www.atheismunited.com/wiki/Huge_list_of_atheist_agnostic_skeptic_humanist_websites boasts, and indeed displays, a "Huge list of atheist agnostic skeptic humanist websites" Sounds like a highly organized "special interest group" if you ask me. Their "agenda" is stated above (e.g." working for the civil rights of atheists, promoting separation of state and church, and providing information about atheism").

It's true that "many atheists" does not "necessarily" mean anything in particular. However, as a matter of empirical fact, it's clear what that entails.

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