argome321
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 05:34 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Don't be so hard on yourself.

If you have answered it...was the answer YES or NO?

But you know as well as I...and anyone else following...that you have not answered it.


you're the only one who doesn't see it and too foolish to admit
Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 05:38 am
@argome321,
You have behaved evasively on this thread, Arg. Frank and Lay are just trying to pin your position down.
argome321
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 05:40 am
@Olivier5,
Code:You have behaved evasively on this thread, Arg. Frank and Lay are just trying to pin your position down.


You have only proven that you don't have a clue.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 05:42 am
@argome321,
I am definitely not the only one who realizes you haven't answered the question, Argome.

Is it a YES or a NO?

I do not have a belief in any gods.

Does that, in and of itself, make me an atheist in your mind?

I want an answer so that if the answer is "YES"...I can ask you why you think that.

I suspect the reason you will not answer the question is because you apparently do think that because I do not have a belief in any gods, that does, in and of itself, make me an atheist...

...and you realize you cannot adequately defend that position.
argome321
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 05:44 am
@Frank Apisa,
Re: argome321 (Post 5915542)
I am definitely not the only one who realizes you haven't answered the question, Argome.

Quote:
Is it a YES or a NO?

I do not have a belief in any gods.

Does that, in and of itself, make me an atheist in your mind?

I want an answer so that if the answer is "YES"...I can ask you why you think that.

I suspect the reason you will not answer the question is because you apparently do think that because I do not have a belief in any gods, that does, in and of itself, make me an atheist...

...and you realize you cannot adequately defend that position.


You demand, really... you have an over exaggerated sense of your worth.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 05:45 am
@argome321,
No, I prove that I can read, and you prove that you cannot be honest.
argome321
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 05:46 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
No, I prove that I can read, and you prove that you cannot be honest.


NO, you proven quite the opposite
Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 05:47 am
@argome321,
You behave as a little child now...
argome321
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 05:48 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
You behave as a little child now...


It takes one to know one, "that calling the Kettle black. etc

I'd figure I come down to your level
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 06:04 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:

Re: argome321 (Post 5915542)
I am definitely not the only one who realizes you haven't answered the question, Argome.

Quote:
Is it a YES or a NO?

I do not have a belief in any gods.

Does that, in and of itself, make me an atheist in your mind?

I want an answer so that if the answer is "YES"...I can ask you why you think that.

I suspect the reason you will not answer the question is because you apparently do think that because I do not have a belief in any gods, that does, in and of itself, make me an atheist...

...and you realize you cannot adequately defend that position.


You demand, really... you have an over exaggerated sense of your worth.


There is no "demand" in there. I am telling you why I want an answer...so that a discussion can proceed in a reasonable way.

If you decide to continue to duck the question rather than answer it, I will understand.
argome321
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 06:09 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I want an answer so that if the answer is "YES"...I can ask you why you think that.


My father had a saying about want. He said "you are old enough for your wants not to hurt you."

as far a reasonable it seems we have a different idea of what is reasonable.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 06:17 am
@argome321,
Can you answer a question straightforwardly, Arg?

Where would you best fit in the systematization I proposed upthread? Here it is for ease of reference:

Quote:
Hard theist: one who believes in god(s), has a clear picture of what they look like, and finds this belief relevant to one's life.

Soft theist: one who believes in god(s), but thinks it's impossible to know much about them, and finds belief in gods not very relevant to one's life.

Soft agnostic: one who does not know if there are zero, 1, or many gods, but still harbor an emotional, cultural or aesthetic attachment to religion(s).

Agnostic: one who does not know if there are zero, 1, or many gods, doesn't want to commit / believe either way, and finds the issue not very important to one's life.

Hard agnostic (or Soft atheist): one who does not pretend to know positively that there are no gods, but concludes that it's either highly unlikely and/or irrelevant to one's life.

(Hard) Atheist: one who believes there are no gods, no matter what they look like, and finds this belief relevant to one's life.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 06:21 am
@argome321,
As Olivier mentioned, you are now behaving like a little child...so I guess thoughts of your father telling you "you are old enough now..." are almost forced to be coming to mind.

You said you wanted reasonable discussion, Argome.

That cannot happen when you are acting up.

Try to get back under control.
argome321
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 06:24 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
As Olivier mentioned, you are now behaving like a little child...so I guess thoughts of your father telling you "you are old enough now..." are almost forced to be coming to mind.

You said you wanted reasonable discussion, Argome.

That cannot happen when you are acting up.

Try to get back under control.


Frank, as far as I am concern you don't have the slightest idea what reasonable is.
argome321
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 06:33 am
@Olivier5,
I am willing to answer your question but first. I want you to read my orignal statement and parse it objectively and tell what you think I said and tell me if you can't your answer in there. I am re-printing my original statement. Because if you truly understand what I am saying you will see the only position I was taking was that some modern day atheist make a distinction between belief and knowledge. below I have re-printed my original statement.

if you disagree with high light the parts of my staement that you have trouble with

Layman I’m surprised at your statement because that is totally in accurate. I’m a former member of NYC Atheist and American Atheist and an avid viewer of the Atheist Experience. Here is the view for many of this atheist, modern day atheist.

Theism has to do with belief and (A) thesis is without belief. Knowledge in and of itself is a subset of belief. Gnosticism is about knowledge; (A) Gnosticism is about without knowledge. So there is two distinct items.
You can be an atheist which means that if you feel that the gods posited don’t make any sense that they could not exist, if you are without belief you are an Atheist, nothing more, nothing less. If you admit you do not know then you are an agnostic atheist.
If you are a theist but don’t know if a god exit but only believe that god(s) exist that would make you an agnostic theist, it is done this way for clarification.

Of course you have some on either side who claim to be Gnostic..to them knowing that god exist or knowing that god doesn’t exist.

I admit there are Atheist who say that theist who take agnostic theist position is nothing more than a cup out. Asking the question how can you believe in something that you can’t know exist?

So if one is asked do you believe in god(s) and replies they are agnostic it doesn’t answer the belief question. One is a question of belief the other is a question of knowledge.

I’m only responding to your post to bring some balance and clarifications of the modern atheist ideology. Past interpretations of agnosticism and atheism are irrelevant if there is ever to be constructive dialogue now in the present and in the future.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 06:40 am
@argome321,
Sorry, i don't understand that post of yours. Can you answer my question now?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 06:52 am
@argome321,
Quote:
Frank, as far as I am concern you don't have the slightest idea what reasonable is.


Yes...and you also said, "you're the only one who doesn't see it and too foolish to admit"

You are dead wrong on both those things, Argome.

But you seem unable to ever acknowledge you are wrong.

Too bad that.

You will never be the grown-up you suppose your father was calling you...if you don't get that part right.
argome321
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 07:06 am
@Olivier5,
Ok fair enough that you admit you don't understand and at least now you're being honest and we can move on.

Do you understand that to some modern day Atheists the term Atheist only means to them that they are without belief and entails nothing else and nothing more?

To them Atheism doesn't determine any other of their life views. It comes without dogma and tenets.

Second, Gnostic and agnostic means to them in and of itself what ones know or doesn't know or perceived as can't know. It is a question of knowledge not of belief.

That was the sole premise of my posting.

But you guys want to make me draw some conclusion from this, as if I must take some positions. Why must I take any position?
but for dialogue sake I will see where this leads.

But be fore warn no matter what position one takes it is up for debate because we are talking about religion.

Third how can you claim I never answered the question when you now admit you don't understand my post?

Let see my my reasoning go for better or worse.

I guess one could be an Atheist agnostic. This would mean I am without a belief of god, admittedly a non-believer who doesn't know whether god(s) exit or not. I'm using the modern day definition that some atheist identify with.

If I say I am a Gnostic Atheist I am saying that I am without belief of a god(s) and I know there's know god.

I'm pretty sure you can figure out the combinations of theist position from here.

If knowing my position is helpful to you, and I do see how it is, I guess my position would be one of being an Agnostic Atheist.

Does this answer your question?

argome321
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 07:10 am
@argome321,
that should knows there no god(s).
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Mon 23 Mar, 2015 07:12 am
@Frank Apisa,
Yes...and you also said, "you're the only one who doesn't see it and too foolish to
Quote:
admit"

You are dead wrong on both those things, Argome.

But you seem unable to ever acknowledge you are wrong.

Too bad that.

You will never be the grown-up you suppose your father was calling you...if you don't get that part right.


Blah Blah Blah such utter noise filling empty space
 

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