Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 02:48 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
What I mean is what I said. Gods may or may not be a component of REALITY. I do not know which it is. 

Do you?

I suppose it depends by which rules and procedures you determine knowledge in metaphysics...

By definition, gods are supernatural beings. They cannot be enquired and studied empirically because they are (theoretically) living in a different plane of reality.


If gods exist...they are part of REALITY...and they are a part of nature.


Quote:
They are thus a part of metaphysics, defined as whatever escapes empirical research.


If you say so!

I do not know if gods exist or not.

Do you?

Quote:
One can make a number of logical arguments against the gods' existence. Some of them I consider strong, such as Occam's razor.


In my opinion, Occum's Razor is useless...filled with holes. It should be expunged from philosophy books.



Quote:
But it's not a "sure-fire" argument, more an indication that we are able to explain more and more without the need for the "god hypothesis".


I have never heard any argument that convinces me that gods have to exist to explain anything.

But that is not evidence that gods do not exist.

I do not know if they exist or not.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 02:57 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You wrote,
Quote:
If gods exist...they are part of REALITY...and they are a part of nature.


WRONG! The very fact that people believe in their god is the only requirement that it's their reality. Whether they exist or not can't be proven.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 03:00 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
f gods exist...they are part of REALITY...and they are a part of nature.

If they are physically part of nature, scientists will find them, but so far there's no trace of them. Apart in the minds and churches of men of course, as CI said.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 03:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:
If gods exist...they are part of REALITY...and they are a part of nature.


WRONG! The very fact that people believe in their god is the only requirement that it's their reality. Whether they exist or not can't be proven.


If gods exist...they exist. If no gods exist (one possible REALITY)...then they don't.

Just because a person "believes" in GOD...does not mean GOD exists. And it certainly is not something that ought be argued in a thread with this thread's title, ci.

As I said, gods may or may not be a part of REALITY.
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 03:07 pm
@Olivier5,
But you have not allowed, Olivier, for the "god hypothesis" being the cause of the urge to explain more and more.

Anthropologists have identified tribes and cultures which showed no sign of having such an urge. Least of all as an obsessive hobby-horse. And those tribes were fully human biologically.

For sure the Christian God hypothesis must be intimately connected to such an obsession in some important way. Reading Spengler provides a clue to that way.

Even in Classical society a urge like that would have been thought dangerous or cranky or eccentric or uncanny. The Elizabethans don't seem to have been all that interested in explaining more and more.

You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater it seems to me. Well---trying to.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 03:10 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
f gods exist...they are part of REALITY...and they are a part of nature.

If they are physically part of nature, scientists will find them, but so far there's no trace of them. Apart in the minds and churches of men of course, as CI said.


If any living beings exist on any planet circling the nearest 10 stars to Sol...they are a part of nature...and scientists MAY find them.

They actually may exist, but scientists also MAY NOT find them...because the distances may be more than humans can overcome.

But so far...no scientist has discovered any living beings on any planet circling the nearest 10 stars to Sol.

That does not mean there are no living beings on any of those planets.

It merely means there MAY BE or MAY NOT BE living beings there.

I do not know which is correct.

Do you?
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 03:12 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I'm sorry, ci...what were you asking?


That's a bloody silly thing to say when what ci. was asking is in the post quoted.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 03:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I have never heard any argument that convinces me that gods have to exist to explain anything.


That's because Apisa closes down his receptors as soon as somebody offers an argument to show that the Christian God had to exist to get fridge-freezers. So that's fridge-freezers explained.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 03:28 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
. Apart (from) in the minds and churches of men of course,


And modern science is saying that what is in those men's minds is a physical object. A mental state. It causes men to construct churches which are aggregates of the individual mental states.

If God exists as a component of those physical objects, mental states, or even of one of them, then God exists. And the men whose mental states built our culture have the proof of His existence in black and white.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 03:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You think gods have to exist or not exist according to your rules. That's just idiotic on the face of it. Millions of people believe in their god - and that IS THEIR REALITY. You don't get to decide what is reality for them. They decide for themselves.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 03:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You think gods have to exist or not exist according to your rules. That's just idiotic on the face of it. Millions of people believe in their god - and that IS THEIR REALITY. You don't get to decide what is reality for them. They decide for themselves.


Well...if you say that is what you accept...I will accept that that is what you accept.

It sounds bizarre to me.

It sounds as though you are confusing what they think the REALITY is...with what the REALITY actually IS.

But if you feel comfortable with it...I won't quarrel with you about it.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 04:23 pm
@Frank Apisa,
But, frankie boy, you're good at feuding. You're able to find the most arcane minutia to make your point - about nothing.

Something you'll never grasp is that people's belief in their god is their reality. It's not a figment of their imagination; they try to live with believing in their god.

There's nothing you can say or do to make them believe otherwise.




Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 04:39 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Generally, gods are seen as supernatural beings and their main function is to explain the creation of nature, of this universe in which we humans live. There are exceptions of course, but if the gods lived on top of Mount Olympus, we'd know it by now. Of course, the gods could live on another planet... They could live on Olympus Mons, Mars...

So of course could Santa Clauss. He does not really live in our north pole... He comes all the way from the north pole of mars...

Either the gods intervene in our lives, and then they are empirically accessible and testable, or they do not intervene, and then they are irrelevant to our lives.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 04:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

But, frankie boy, you're good at feuding. You're able to find the most arcane minutia to make your point - about nothing.

Something you'll never grasp is that people's belief in their god is their reality. It's not a figment of their imagination; they try to live with believing in their god.



The REALITY, ci, IS what IS.

Whatever IS...IS.

If people want to guess about the reality and call it "their reality" they are free to do so.

But their guesses about the reality...no matter what they call them...will only be their guesses.

The REALITY is whatever actually IS.

You can eventually get that...or you can stick with what you are trying to say in your posts.


Quote:
There's nothing you can say or do to make them believe otherwise.


I could not care less about what they "believe" or guess...because whatever IS...IS. And if what they "believe" or guess is different from what actually IS...it is simply an incorrect belief or guess.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 04:42 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Generally, gods are seen as supernatural beings and their main function is to explain the creation of nature, of this universe in which we humans live. There are exceptions of course, but if the gods lived on top of Mount Olympus, we'd know it by now. Of course, the gods could live on another planet... They could live on Olympus Mons, Mars...

So of course could Santa Clauss. He does not really live in our north pole... He comes all the way from the north pole of mars...

Either the gods intervene in our lives, and then they are empirically accessible and testable, or they do not intervene, and then they are irrelevant to our lives.


They may very well be irrelevant, Olivier...I have never suggested that they must be relevant.

Bottom line though: If gods exist...they exist; if they don't...they don't. Whichever it is...IS THE REALITY.

ME...I do not know the REALITY.

How about you? Do you know?
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 04:53 pm
Holy Moses!! A bunch of atheists going on and on and on about God.

When will they get around to the *******? It's as if they are in denial that it's about nothing else but the *******. Drawing room atheists. Shadow boxing in the dark. Spines a bristling.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 05:06 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I define knowing as what can be buttressed by facts and reason. It's a very fickle thing, but it can be built (and broken and rebuilt) based on observation and reason.

If gods are defined as supernatural, they cannot be observed with a telescope, and are unknowable given my definition of knowledge. And irrelevant.

You're not saying anything else: the gods don't matter, because they are unknowable. If YHWH was to appear somewhere as a burning bush every morning, I bet He would become relevant ...

He seemed to do that a lot more in ancient times for some reason...
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 05:13 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
If God exists as a component of those physical objects, mental states, or even of one of them, then God exists. And the men whose mental states built our culture have the proof of His existence in black and white

Proof that men believe(d) in him. Proof of the existence of God as a mental and social construct. Yes.

And one can make a case for this or that religion as a positive or negative socio-historic force, or both.

IOW, religions don't need to be true to exist. But that's trivial.
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 May, 2014 05:18 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Proof of the existence of God as a mental and social construct. Yes.


No. As a physical object. You can't afford to allow immaterial objects to exist.
Wilso
 
  2  
Sat 10 May, 2014 05:58 pm
Trollfest 2014.
 

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